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Sunday, June 10, 2018

commander magazine 2 of 2


COMMANDER MAGAZINE 2

Yesterday we were talking about magazines for those infuriating semi-automatics you insist on owning.  I told you that the whole purpose of a semi is to dump rounds down range, which is why you DON’T want them post-apocalypse.  But I also know you hate me and refuse to listen to me and hence still live in the city and don’t have nice hair and own FLIR scopes and semi-automatic weapons.  Okay, whatever dude.  Since you DO own semi’s, you need to seriously consider if you have enough magazines.  Commander Zero, who is one of the few folks who passes as a cool dude in Yuppie Survival-dom, thinks you need forty mags per weapon.  Not per weapons system, per each individual gun ( or, that was my understanding anyway.  If you want details, read his damn blog.  I can‘t do ALL the work around here ). 

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Then I started talking about the M1 Carbine, because not only am I easily distracted by shiny objects, to me this seemed to be a direct inspiration to the M-16 and might shed some light on today’s tactical thinking.  Eugene Stoner was a Marine in the Pacific in WWII.  I don’t think it outside the realm of the probable that he either used a Carbine extensively or had buddies that did and he was stuck with a much heavier weapon that was so unwieldy that he felt it dangerous.  Either he enjoyed the Carbine or his buddies did, and this shaped his thinking.  Again, I am guessing.  I have read no material on the man previous to his engineering. 

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The Carbine wasn’t meant for front line infantrymen, but obviously when troops can get rid of turds and get better weapons, they do.  Evidently the Carbine was rather popular with the fighters.  Training doctrine was out of date and emphasized marksmenship, but it is my understanding that upon joining a unit the On The Job Training was orientated to suppressive fire.  Compared to all other fighting forces combined, the Americans alone had an insane surplus of everything.  It wouldn’t take combat vets long to learn to take advantage of the ammunition glut. 

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If you are fighting short ranges and you need overwhelming firepower, the Carbine has an advantage over the Garand.  There were Tommy Guns and ( I believe, at the time ) Grease Guns, but the Carbines proved the most popular.  Probably because it wasn’t REALLY a pistol round.  It was a step above in power and range.  Compared to a 30-06 of course it was a vile hunk of crap round.  But compared to a 45, it was impressive enough.  And they probably made and issued so many, there were plenty that found their way to infantrymen. 

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Now, here is what got my interest.  The two dudes are talking on You Tube “Forgotten Weapons”, and it was stated that the only two problems the Carbine had for the troops was that it could NOT be run dry and that the magazines were absolute crap.  So, you always over lubricated and you threw away your magazines every single time a new shipment of ammo came in, replacing them with brand new ones ( evidently the ammo always came packed with mags ).  The M-16 both needs to run wet and the magazines were designed to be disposable.

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What the M-16 did do was improve the round ( still light enough but packing much more punch at a further range  ) and the performance on full automatic ( the M2 Carbine broke bolts aplenty of full auto ).  It was still the Carbine tactically.  The premise was the same, by a combat vet.  Superior firepower for the infantryman who had a superior logistics situation backing him up.  Of course, as we know, Vietnam was the last Industrial Age Oil Age war.  All you preppers emulating an obsolete system. 

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But, looking at the M16 from its time of inception, perhaps not the worst idea the military ever had ( despite my hindsight insistence to the contrary ).  They don’t get a pass on replacing the Blooper with the horrid M203, nor substituting the Beretta for the 1911 ( the weapon was superior, but NOT the round ), nor the Hummer for the Jeep, but at least looking at it from Stoners perspective, I can give them a partial pass on the M16.  Good God!  I’m a superior human being, somewhat allowing stupidity to pass.  My magnanimousness is legendary.

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So, how many magazines do you think were used in combat in these systems?  I’m sure there is an Army study on new issue M16 magazines.  I remember being issued just one time a bandoleer of 223 ammo on stripper clips with the charger, but we never had any training ( unless it was a single offhand remark I forgot ) on saving or nor not saving magazines ( we were rear echelon combat troops, and loads consisted of two belts for the M60, never more than four M16 mags and the standard two clips for the 45 carried in the field or on base-if I’m recalling correctly.  Don’t place good money on that.  I do know it wasn’t enough ).  

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Now, obviously, the prepper doesn’t want to dump and forget a mag every 28 rounds.  But it would interest me to hear from veterans, or second hand from them, the realistic retention rate of magazines in combat.  I am of the mind that it probably isn’t very good.  Is forty magazines enough?  Not that I want to compare apples to oranges.  Preppers would have a concern from the beginning on proper savings of magazines in training.  And I don’t really like comparing the militaries combat to the more insurgent role preppers will most likely play.  But I have many questions here.

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We know that doctrine adapted on the battlefield was magazine disposal for the Carbine.  As has been mentioned oft times for Vietnam.  Is it still the same?  If not, are mags lost just the same?  At what rate?  If you practice ammo dumps with your AR-15, do you always assume you are able to police up your mags afterwards?  Is this realistic?  I’ll call this article, “fascinating but probably irrelevant”.  I hope you enjoyed anyway.

END ( today's related link https://amzn.to/2LYskQt )
 

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31 comments:

  1. As far as quantity's go, whatever makes you "feel" comfortable. I can understand your concern cause you seem to volley back and forth on this stuff.

    Consider the mission. Or purpose.
    After the ball drops, what is the purpose of any weapon?
    To procure food, and security.
    Everything from throwing rocks to a machine gun will do that, so what do you choose?

    Leave the food part out for a second.
    What is the worst case scenario for security?
    For me it would be this.
    Here, it is just me and my wife and she doesn't shoot. Yet.
    I'm on the side of a hill and can see a long distance, a mile or more between the trees. Suppose I see a convoy of say 8 vehicles approaching and I know they are coming my way. This is just one of many scenarios I have thought of.

    I will ready several levels of firepower.
    1) Remington 700 in .308 will clandestinely blow tires and windshields and maybe some skulls a mile away.
    2) AR15 will deliver massive firepower out to 600 yds or more.
    3) Remington 870 12ga will sweep the yard out to 100 yds with 00 buck.
    4) Beretta 92FS 9mm will dispatch those that are left, or my wife and me.

    I have levers and pumps of every size and shape, but I am focusing on the mission. Those other guns are fun to play around with, but when it comes to the mission of saving my wifes life, only serious tools will be considered. Thus, my list above.

    I can't imagine the absolute HORROR of needing to get massive firepower downrange to save our lives and failed because I was a cheapskate and didn't have enough experience when both are easily obtained now.

    If you are so poor or lazy now to do what needs to be done, then how in the hell will you be able to manage getting these things after the bottom falls out?

    NOW is the time to figure this stuff out, not later, and time is very short. As I type this it may be over already but we haven't heard about it yet.

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    1. I think tomorrow I get into silver. Not because it suddenly is a better idea, but because suddenly it seems that cash money might be MORE of a bad idea. I can't point to my gut feelings as legitimate warning bells because I periodically overreact, but even acknowledging that it sure seems like economic alarm bells are going off all over the place. So your last sentence resonates with me.

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    2. Silver is a weak point for me cause I just don't know much about it and don't want to get ripped off. I'd like to have about $1000 worth, in todays dollars, in small denomination coins. I'm gonna hafta get serious about this.

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    3. Sorry, article is Tuesday, not tomorrow. Long story short, I needed to get rid of greenbacks and chose the lesser evil silver. I was worried about Chinese counterfeit coins, so I tried out Golden State Mint. In theory, they cast all their own. Also, hoping that Rawles polices his advertisers like he used to, and it is just a hope, Apmex.com for the rest. I'll report once I get them in my grubby hands ( knock on wood ). I never buy junk silver ( the wear might screw you slightly on weight ), just private mint one ounce bullion coins. It's what I feel comfortable with, your mileage may vary.

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    4. Montana Rarities. Commander zero's guy up the road in montana. Fair guy, I bought when it was high at @ 25.00 An once, went down but never to zero and it wont rot away. Web site research, then call and get a quote and send cashiers check at that quote. Will do u.s. postal mail/insured-signed for so it us secure and insured. Go with government u.s. canada coins better recognition than john's foundry out back operation.

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    5. Go with Mom & Pop if possible, sure. There might be a few left here and there. Anyone else know of a small operator in coins to pass on?

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  2. The economy hasn't stopped resonating with me. We are on a razor edge and this tariff crap is only serving to unbalance a delicate teter totter.
    Kunstlers latest drivel, I thought to be spot on.
    Your premonition is well served Jim.

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    1. Kunstler did pull a rabbit out of his hat. Different than his usual political time waster.

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    2. I don't try to figure Trump out. He works on a different level than I can comprehend. But on the surface I don't like the tariff thing. It's a tax and I'm automatically against all taxes. The corporations will pay the tariffs and pass the costs onto the consumers. Why would Trump do that? There's got to be more to this story.

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    3. I wonder if it is a return to the Great Depression "beggar thy neighbor" global tariff trend, nations failing economically with little other choice. I try to look at it macro trend rather than micro ( consumer tax ).

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  3. About the M-1 carbine. I know an old Special Forces guy that was in Viet Nam (it was called Indo-china then) in the late 1950's mapping the Ho che min trail. He said that he took an AK-47 off the first enemy he killed and threw away his Carbine. It was accurate enough for the jungle he was in and could be left in the mud and still function when needed.

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    1. So, to switch viewpoints. Rather than "the AK is better than the M1 or M16", we should perhaps take away "was Vietnam planned that far in advance"?

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    2. How did he keep it ammo'd up? Keep killing enemy's and grabbing their stash?

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  4. Although the M1 carbine can kill a deer, WV banned them from deer hunting because it wounded far more than it killed. Take from that what you want

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    1. Couldn't you say the same of archery? Of course, we are talking Government Logic here, the kissing inbred cousin to Female Logic ( sorry, gals, I couldn't help myself ).

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    2. Typical. They blame the gun rather than the shooter.
      FWIW, if the deer is on MY property it is MY deer and no gov't retard gets to say anything about it. When they start finding these gov't assholes gutted and burning in the ditches along deserted country roads you'll start to see civility come back in style.

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    3. The 80's were the last time you saw much LEO civility. Then the Domestic War Of Terror and now the game wardens run around with a hard on for some stick time.

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  5. Prior to the general issue of pmags (USMC), most guys I knew bought their own. Everyone polices mags, putting them in a weak side dump pouch if empty, in a specific pouch they have for partials.
    The old usgi aluminum mags were beat to hell, and most guys didn't like them. I never had any problems with mine and welcomed their cast offs (I carried two full loadouts...22 mags downloaded to 28 for around 600 rounds of freedom).
    No one wants to be in a firefight without ammo, and you run what you brung.

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    1. Excellent-what I wanted to know. Thanks.

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  6. My father had one of those .30 M1 carbines chambered in a Ruger Blackhawk single action revolver. He loved that round, and I saw him make some pretty spectacular long range shots with that pistol. It’s probably about the smallest that you would want to use on deer though, and even then, on the smaller deer species, and at closer ranges. The rifle is really light, and probably weighs no more than the Ruger 10/22. The ammo is real light as well, so you could carry a lot of it easy enough. I’d imagine that it would reach out to about 150 yards. The shell is not too much smaller than the .357 (about as long, but not as fat) so you can actually load them hot enough to do some damage.

    For post collapse, if you really had to have a semi-auto, wouldn’t it be better to stay with a gun that uses something such as the low tech Enbloc clips like the M1 Garand?

    Here’s 40 of them for $43:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/40ea-M1-Garand-Clips-8rd-ENBLOC-US-MILSPEC-Clip-30-06-New-FREE-SHIP-/232693503643

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    1. Don't you still run into the same issues of loss and damage, though? Granted, cheaper, but you still need a lot and it limits the weapon you can have. Which aren't cheap any more. Sadly, like the Enfield, the Garand's time has passed for the frugal prepper I think.

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    2. Probably. I was just saying that if you really felt the need to have a semi, then maybe something that uses the cheap clip system is the way to go. But I’m pretty sure that you’re right, and those Garand’s are a kings ransom these days. Heavier than Rosie O’Dumbbells lunch pail too!

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    3. Remember Rawles changing from FN-FAL's to the HK91 clones just because the mags were cheaper? He might have come out cash ahead on the thing, but it seemed a weird move to me. You have to relearn the whole thing and buy all new accessories. I think there is a point when you worry too much about mags or ammo and not enough about the gun. Unless you are an accountant...

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  7. 30.06 is a balls on fire round, but heavy logistics train and enbloc loading gun. 7.62x51 same deal, 20 rd mag feeder heavy logistics (carry) train. .30 carbine is 110 grain bullet @1900 feet per second, just a fast handgun round (ok, but really?) 5.56 snappy round, works well jungles/urban,light weight carry loads. 7.63x39 combloc intermediate (similar to 30-30) gets it done, worldwide. Carried them all, all have a place, BUT, I would lean towards 5.56/.223 as it is the prolific round and most-bestest for probable scenarios. Fall in formation, stop thinking for youselves.

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    1. Oh, everyone is present and accounted for, sir! :)

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    2. I really REALLY wish the .30 Carbine was easier to find and much less expensive. Like .38 Spcl. expensive. I like the carbine which is so easy to carry and doesn't sprinkle its fired brass way the bum F over there. Pretty much anyone over 10 and under 70 can shoot them comfortably. True, effective range is within 200 yards, but that is effective enough.

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    3. Are the pistol caliber carbines that much of a sacrifice in performance, compared? I'm very much framing that in an economic sense, as in "knock down power" or "range" per dollar spent on both the gun and the ammo. And I'm ONLY asking. I don't have enough experience with any carbine ( the one time I shot a M1 as a loner, I was underwhelmed ).

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  8. Definitely need a ton of $$$ and storage space to keep a carbine prepper happy. Personally, a WWII bolt gun with a butt load of stripper clips will likely be enough keep you alive, with a little luck of course.

    I think anyone engaged in a fight where the advantage of a AR / AK will not happen past a month into SHTF. Marauders carrying that much ammunition will be in short supply. So the carbine user sprayin' and prayin' is dependent on finding supplies from prey to run their firearms.

    If they didn't shoot as much as they did, they wouldn't need as much. Sort of a chicken - egg scenario.

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    1. Since I covered it so much before I tried to leave the above issue alone. At least for this one article. But...yeh.

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    2. Trimming up a piece of baseboard yesterday for a bathroom remodel I'm working on, I had to use a wood chisel for the first time in about 5 years. You know how a chisel is sloped from 1 side and the other side is flat. I forgot which was which and used the sloped side against the line and cut the dam thing too short. Hate it when that happens. A second of bad thought or no thought and a 12 dollar piece of baseboard is ruined. If I had used that chisel more frequently that might not have happened.

      When you look at the chisel it only has 2 sides and both work depending on what you are doing. Choose wrong though and pay the price.

      Think how more complex is a gun than a chisel. Think of all the things that can be done wrong. I was under no pressure when cutting that baseboard wrong, no one was approaching wanting to kill me if I did it wrong. But what if they had? I would be dead right now and you wouldn't be reading this.

      I'm a heavy advocate of having guns you are comfortable with, knowledgeable of, and very experienced with, and, as my example above demonstrates, continuously experienced with.

      When you're suddenly yanked up out of your favorite dream at 3:15am by the sound of a creaking stair tread by a bad guy that's going to kill you and live inside your wife for awhile, that is not the time to "cut that baseboard wrong".

      Guns and ammo ain't a destination, it's a journey and that entails using them frequently and replenishing them as necessary. With what we know about the world around us there is no reason to not be on board.

      QOTD: "When they kill my ass they are also going to get an enormous cache of killing and living items free of charge."

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    3. Good point, thinking of prepping equipment like that chisel. We can all relate, even with something as simple as forgetting how to cook something again, or the rules to a game we haven't played in awhile. Like, it's been years since I attached my bayonet. In the middle of a riot...

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