Saturday, August 10, 2019

ammo barter


AMMO BARTER
Let's revise an oldie but goody. Bartering ammunition. Why it is the most retarded idea outside scratching your balls with a straight razor. What part of “irreplaceable” do you not understand? It is the same reason I tell you not to use a semi-auto ( but I know I can't change your mind and so will not try ). The Oil Age allowed a great many things to be done, which were never done before and which will never ever be done again ( don't get me started on that turd A Canticle For Leibowitz ). End story.
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Ooh! Ooh! Mr. Carter! No, let me stop you right there. We probably won't be rebuilding a black powder infrastructure either. Gunpower empires were no small feat, requiring navies to reach equatorial regions containing bird crap deposits ( guano to those of more refined sensibilities ), armies to occupy them, forests for fuel for metal working and surplus feed for the armies and the armies of specialists. And the ore had to be near enough to the surface for muscle powered extraction.
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What do I keep telling you about ore? For near thirty years now, starting pretty much about the same time the Soviets joined the elephant graveyard of empires ( don't worry, US Presidents, Afghanistan had NOTHING, nothing I tells ya, to do with that ), those employing the magic of Globalism ( to get Moar Free Stuff ) have employed huge machinery to go deep to extract a butt ton of earth to extract a very small amount of needed ores. Not JUST in gold ( in just ten years, the average global gold extraction process required twice as much fuel ) but even in iron and other mundane metals.
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I can smell you scratching your head. Yeah, Short Bus, if all the surface ores, or concentrated ores, are gone, how does your post-apocalypse self get any using primitive techniques? And if the folks getting the stuff today have to go to the Congo or Mongolia to get it, how can there be any left in your neck of the woods? How much steel can you salvage with limited fuel? How can you get it pure enough? How much Chinese steel is pure crap? Gunpowder is like solar panels. It works great for a household. But you can't scale up to replace the grid or the nations armaments, not in a contracting resource environment.
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And gunpowder and smokeless powder are two very different things. Smokeless powder is of course possible on a small scale. It is nitrates combusted in an airless container ( if I'm remembering my “Caveman Chemistry” correctly ). Nitrates are the bottleneck. As long as you don't need to scale up for artillery, it isn't impossible. Primers are much more difficult, and I don't know if production of brass cases will ever get back off the ground. But the basic issue is nitrates. You can usually use them for food, or for ammo, but not both ( hence the overseas colonies to secure excess nitrates ).
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If you can afford the now out of control pricing of black powder firearms replicas ( and why this is, with India making them, remains a mystery. Unless demand is so low now it has become a boutique industry ), you can use homemade black powder and flints, nearly forever, until a critical part on the gun breaks ( although, one imagines once the “tube on a stick” is purchased, the trigger and hammer assembly spare unit won't add appreciably to the price ). This is a much better ( logistically ) bet than a rimfire.
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But a rimfire weapon is one tenth the cost of a flintlock, and with the difference you can buy five thousand rounds of ammo AND another twenty-five thousand reloads ( primer liquid and powder, assuming a source of scavenged lead ). As long as you don't act the retard and blast any target as if it needed a shotgun, going through hundred round mags, like the Yuppie Scum Guru's advise, and instead use your rimfire as a Forever Gun ( using pellet or slingshot ammo for the squirrels, and trapping the rest ), it is hard for a black powder gun to beat a rimfire tactically.
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It is a lot harder for the average bowman to target a rifleman, even one using a rimfire, at a hundred yards, as it is the converse. Rimfires are TERRIBLE weapons compared to all the others around today, but will be wonderful against the weapons of tomorrow. Which is why it irks my ass no end when survivalists treat rimfire as a disposable mass volley weapon. Each round is precious, jerk, when you are trying to NOT run out of smokeless powder, ever. Smokeless powder is the premier Oil Age invention, perhaps only equaled by plate glass and rigid board insulation.
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Smokeless powder rounds are irreplaceable, and no matter what you might think now, in very short supply, very quickly. Why would you EVER, ever in the history of forever, even think to barter even one component? With that kind of mental horsepower, I can only imagine you survive all of five seconds after the beginning of the apocalypse. Even all by yourself out in the middle of nowhere. Of course, you'll be in the city, because you can't remove your Velcro tennis shoes on your own and need someone to count over ten for you.
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But, Jim, I'll get sick and need antibiotics and I'll need to barter to get some. Even though I'll be bartering with strangers, and I can certainly be certain they are not counterfeits, right? Your average survivalist won't even start walking to get in shape, and you don't think they won't need their own meds, immediately? Antibiotics, even assuming they are as powerful and effective as you hope ( because, you know, doctors and the pharma industry are all saints and would never lie to you ), will be used up very quickly ( probably by the fools with AR's blasting away at each other in CQB as they were taught ). Those after that are most likely bogus.
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There are just certain things you don't do. Ever. Like trust those outside your tribe. Doing that today gets you broke, in jail or injured. Doing that post-apocalypse just gets you killed. Continued tomorrow.
( .Y. )
( today's related Amazon link click HERE )
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note: free for today book, PA HERE. Non-fiction, the history behind today's conflict in Sudan HERE.  
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note: I don't know if its any better than any other Stone Age tech book out there, but the YouTube guy of Primitive Technology is coming out with a book HERE.
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40 comments:

  1. Correct. Ammo and those chambered thus weapons that now serve as an accoutrement to that ammunition in order of apocalypse importance priority will need to be sequestered and squirreled away deep.

    The child slaves are then forced out into raiding and salvage parties at bayonet point post die off to scavenge up weapons and ammo off the corpses and collapsing empire remnants, leaving a lot of now newly useless consumerism debris laying about behind. Funny how all the things they fought over at black friday sales are not mentioned at all in post appocalypse Michael Snyder spazmastic type prepping articles.

    Use your ammo to take and jack what some fool wants to 'barter' something for it.

    To think that that scumbag Lester wouldn't shoot you dead and take all your gear if in a stronger position or opportunist is fatally naive notions that won't work post collapse.

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    1. Barter is just another denial of how violence will be widespread, true.

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  2. I’m no chemist, but I’m pretty sure that you’d have to be one in order to produce gun cotton. As you say, even the low tech black powder propellant would be challenging PA.

    Agreed on the rimfire; greatest thing since sliced cheese. I’m also the minion that’s big on the flintlocks. Obviously, it doesn’t make sense to drop $1500 on a .75 cal Brown Bess musket, or $800 on a 4ga Blunderbuss, so you pick up that home made gun book from that Brown fellow, and make your own, after getting the lock work from a place such as Dixie Gun Works. I think that a 4g blunderbuss would work beautifully for crowd control, and you can have a few of them ready to go, if you go with the inexpensive home made route.
    One nice thing about the muzzleloaders, is that you bypass the brass and reloading equipment. You do have the flints as a weak point, but a couple of dozen or so flints, and re-knapping when necessary, will make them reusable.

    Really, you want to have some redundancy here. Plenty of rimfire, primitive archery skills/supplies/equipment, slingshots and plenty of rubbers to keep them going, and a nitro piston air rifle.

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  3. I'm pretty sure PA home grown chemists would be on par with meth cooks that start with Sudefed and follow the instructions from someone using his own product.

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  4. "Each round is precious, jerk, when you are trying to NOT run out of smokeless powder, ever."

    The reason they think they can spray and pray is because they don't realize that this IS the end game. They believe everything will be back to normal in short order.

    3/4 of my 40k stock is in .22
    A year after the bottom falls out, unless you are many miles (10) from other people, if you shoot any gun it will attract the pirates. Got crossbow, and other alternates?

    I say 10 miles because in the absence of noise, like you hear everywhere today, your hearing will become better and therefore a gunshot 10 miles away might be heard.

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    1. Wouldn't you say the 22, being a lot quieter, is a bit less in distance? No disputing that 10 mile buffer. All one has to do is walk towards the shot, even one mile now, two miles next week, and find you eventually ( if they have a reason to ). Just wondering if the same would apply equally to all rounds.

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    2. That Vlad fellow that used to post here, stated that the subsonic rounds in a 24” or greater barrel, were virtually silent. The biggest problem these days is finding a .22 with a 24” or greater barrel, as most seldom ever exceed 20”. I can totally see his point though, because when I fired the .22 CB mini’s (It’s a light loaded short) out of my gallery gun, they were virtually silent. I’d say that it might be harder to duplicate what Vlad is talking about today (Stealth) but you could come much closer with a high quality .22 caliber air rifle. Everything is so much cheaper too. The pellets cost nothing compared to the cost of the rimfire rounds. My Crosman Nitro piston air rifle (No, I’m not affiliated in any way with Crosman, so buy whatever you feel would suit your needs) was really a bargain at $100 (Probably more now, as this was a few years ago).

      Good to see that GS is back. I figured that he was gone for good.

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    3. what about buying a rugar 10-22 tactical. It has a threaded end on the barrel. there are a couple of youtube videos on making a suppressor for a .22.

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    4. Blech. Semi-auto. I've also had comments the quality control was slipping. Of course, just being THE standard for that weapon does bring a lot of pluses.

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    5. 12:28-Don't forget some had good luck with the Chinese air rifles. I heard enough I'd be willing to gamble, but that is way down on my priority for purchase.

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    6. Yeah, I also have the B1 Chink air rifle Jim. They say the B3 is even better. I’ll admit that for a cheap air rifle, it is pretty darn good. It also uses easier to replace leather seals, and it would be easier to rebuild PA. That said, the Crosman blows it away. They (The B1 and B3) appear to have gone up in price, and are around $60 now, with the B3 costing slightly more. You can still get a brand name nitro piston rifle for a $100 though, so I’d say that you should spend the extra $30 for that one instead. In case it isn’t obvious, you want to avoid the .177 cal, if you want to avoid that all telling ultrasonic crack. My .22 Crosman is virtually silent. I use alloy pellets, because I’m paranoid of lead (I guess living in Commiefornia for too long has finally got to me) but lead pellets are dirt cheap.

      I am not a hunter Jim; liking animals far too much to take their lives. So my guns are for the post apocalypse, in the event that it comes down to having to perform the unpleasant task of harvesting game.

      https://www.amazon.com/Benjamin-Piston-Powered-Prowler-BPNP82SX/dp/B01M0JEUAG/ref=sr_1_33?keywords=crosman+22+air+rifle&qid=1565477983&s=gateway&sr=8-33

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    7. I'm checking out your link, and I see that notice saying NJ residents need an Air Rifle License. Holy Friggin Crap, dude! I think I feel a little bit of pee dribbling down my leg I'm laughing so hard! Welcome to Great Britain's Spiritual Colony.

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    8. Yeah, places such as New Jersey, Michigan, NYC, have been screwed like that for a long time now. You get the same warning when trying to purchase muzzleloaders in these places as well. It’s hard to believe that there are places that have even less rights than commiefornia. Though we can no longer buy ammo over the internet, and you now need a license to buy ammo period. Though I hear the latter is disputed as we speak. I posted that CA pistol roster here more recently. Half the pistols that I wanted to get weren’t on the roster, so I couldn’t get them. As might be expected, the one’s that were, cost the most.

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    9. One wonders about a company kick-back for that list. Like the American companies were behind the import halts on cheaper guns. Some days, this wordsmith cannot appropriately express the depths of hatred for my fellow Americans ( but I'm patriotic! I hate fuzzy foreigners more, just on principle ).

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    10. The maintenance on air guns is difficult, and necessary. The pellets are pure lead and those things leave a coating on everything they touch, and it builds up. Also, pellet guns are built in such a way as to be difficult to disassemble for proper cleaning like you would do with a firearm. They use rivets rather than bolts/screws/pins. If you can drill the rivets out and replace them with bolts the job will be a little easier. However, most of these cheap guns are stamped sheet metal and the parts are man handled in the factory for assembly. You can get them apart easy enough but reassembly is pretty difficult. BB's are made from copper and have the same problem but are less soft than the lead.

      Been using a Centerpoint crossbow for the past year and find the whole process awkward. I'm talking about the loading. I wear size 10 boots but my foot barely fits in the cocking strap. And, though I have not seen this mentioned any where, it is easy to get the cord off center when yanking back on it with the loading rope. Hard to explain. On my 3rd shot the cord got off center. They say to not shoot a crossbow without a bolt, the shock will damage the arms. So I fired it, the bolt went off to the side and pierced the 55gal burn barrel and killed the bolt. Now, I pay closer attention when cocking it.

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    11. Henry has a couple .22 rifles with 24" barrels.

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    12. GS-appreciate the words of caution on the pellet guns. A crossbow can probably be home designed and improved so I can't imagine them being as big of an issue.
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      5:48-thank you

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    13. GS is right in that most air guns can be difficult to disassemble. In this regard, the B1 and B3 Chink airguns are probably better. Alex below mentions that nitro piston airguns are an “accuracy nightmare”. I’m not sure what he’s basing this on, but my experience with my Crosman has been completely opposite. I do not have a scope on mine, since the stock sights are so nice, but it’s a given that you need special scopes with piston or spring powered airguns.

      One nice thing about crossbows is that you can rig the rope cocker to be used with one arm. So if someone is injured, or has limited use of one arm, they can still use a crossbow. But even crossbows require more parts/maintenance, than just a simple longbow, in order to keep them going PA.

      Really, what it comes down to is that everything has a bottleneck. With firearms, it’s powder and detonation material. With airguns, it’s seals and lubes, with slingshots, it’s rubbers, with modern long or recurve bows it’s dacron string and wax, with compound bows it’s cables, pulleys, or carbon or aluminum arrows (Which is why I would never recommend them for that reason. And yes, it is recommended that you never fire wooden arrows from a compound bow).

      The only true “forever gun” is a primitive Indian bow. And unless you conjure up Ishi as your tutor, that’s not happening :D (Just kidding. There are many books out there on primitive archery)

      https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ishi+the+last+yahi&t=lm&atb=v1-1&ia=web

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    14. Oh, and I’ll add that carving a primitive bow stave, weaving a primitive string from vegetable fiber or sinew, knapping a flint arrow head, or straightening a dogwood arrow shaft over an open fire, cannot be for the faint of heart. But if you want a true “forever gun” so to speak, this is a skill that you will need.

      By the way, I consider the above practitioners to be the only true archers out there.

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    15. Bravo! All said very well. I'd be jealous except I just now finished next Saturdays article and if I do say so myself it is awesome. Okay, sue me. I'm a bit biased. Anyway, thank you. This is why you must love the comments section.

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    16. Thanks Jim! It looks like someone actually produced a documentary on Ishi, and it’s rated 8 out of 10 at IMDB. I was not aware of this? I’m sure it’s told from the “white devil” perspective, so I’ll pass on it. But from the comments:

      john Moreland 2 years ago

      People still knap his style arrow points..they’re called Ishi Style points..make and hunt with Ishi style bows and arrows..a Great American..original

      https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104531/

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZB9oKQaCN4

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  5. Where is the best place to buy 22 ammo?

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    1. I love Midway
      https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900123451
      They have free shipping over $50 all the time. Sportsman's is great for everything else, but Midway is all about ammo and parts. As easy as Amazon for ordering.

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    2. Just be careful who you are buying from. Some look hinky.

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    3. Oops, I should have said, Midway has the shipping specials ALMOST all the time.

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  6. The 24" .22 LR barrel is just as quiet as Vlad said. I like this one.
    https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-457-training-rifle/

    Almost lead-free .22 pellets. These are copper-coated lead, meaning they won't deform, and penetrate deeply. They also don't lead up your bore, so you don't need to clean it. The big plus is you don't get lead on your fingers during handling, and if you're shooting something you plan on eating, you won't be smearing lead residue through the meat (yuck!). I have a Gamo gas piston that really likes these.
    https://www.pyramydair.com/s/p/H_N_Field_Target_Trophy_Power_Copper_Plated_22_Cal_14_66_Grains_Round_Nose_200ct/976
    Peace out

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  7. Do some searching of the various Buyvivalism/Sellvivalism sites on "ballistic wampum" and you'll find plenty on the foolishness of selling your neighbors the ammo to shoot you with.

    If I had to have ONE gun, I'd choose the Ruger 10/22, that and a Ruger Mk II pistol would be a good combo as they shoot the same ammmo and even have parts in common. Good to have spare springs, extractors, etc.

    For pellet guns, piston jobs are an accuracy nightmare and pound scopes to pieces. The Daisy 880 is a good cheap gun you can plink and hunt with, is scarily accurate, and it's fun watching the hit in the scope - on this last, throw away the factory scope right away and get a nice little 4X Tasco or something.

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    1. Here is one without a scope:
      https://amzn.to/31yj5xr

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  8. Buy quality...so that hopefully you only have to buy it once !
    Especially for a lifetime forever weapon !

    I realize that sometimes ya just gotta settle for cheap shit, cuz you be a po boy...but ain't nuthin what comes cheap gonna last a lifetime. Better to forego some of that net flicks crap or hookers and blow shit. Till ya can afford to get something better...
    Pay for the better quality ammo too. CCI rather than Remmington. Cheap ammo ain't cheap , if 30% of it fails to fire ! Never walfart stuff...

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    1. Okay to buy cheap crap, if needs must. As long as you are going to replace it soonest. When I bought my rimfire arsenal, I focused on getting the 10k rounds of ammo ( back when Wally ammo didn't malf ) and the rifle was secondary. I eventually replaced it, making it near worthless. But I knew that going in. Interior plastic parts says it all. Pick your Lesser Quality poison well, is all I'm saying. And once again Baby Jesus was looking out for me, as it wasn't too long after that we got The Great Half Decade Rimfire Ammo Debacle.

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  9. Thing is Remington rimfire has had issues going way back. Not just Walmart low grade stuff. I remember getting a 2500 count case of 50 Rd. packs. That no shit had over one third failures. This was from back in the eighties. Remington has had issues on rimfire for a long time.
    Almost any brand beats Rem.

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    1. I never had an issue. Perhaps it was the gun type? I still had a semi, it was just a tube fed. Would that make a difference? Not that I disbelieve you. Far too many hold the same opinion, anyway. Perhaps it was just the time period, about 2006. Wally was doing real good then. Perhaps they didn't get "special" batches? Hard to say. I know it gives me pause to ever buy one of their guns.

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    2. Just as in food, merchandise has variable quality A B C type grading. First quality to high end stores and "c" grade going to discount bulk buyers.
      I've had those results with all my 22 lr guns. Ranging from a Stevens over and under break open single, an old Remington bolt single (my first gun at twelve) , Tube fed mod 60's , a Marlin lever gun and both my 10/22's.
      Even the 22 revolver don't like them , the semi Rugar flat won't fire a whole mag and my Beretta Panther likes anything but duds lol.
      So as you can see I run a variety of 22lr toys
      Now on the other hand CCI is almost 100% in all those guns.

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    3. I see what you're saying. Appreciate it.

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  10. All Barter entails some Risk - even before the Zombie Apocalypse. Barter with Trusted Individuals or Groups (Trust has to be Earned) is far more Valuable than just sitting on your stockpile of 'preps' and hoping that you haven't 'forgotten' some key item. While I would definitely put Ammo and Weapons as the Highest Value Items, if you are in a community of people that you Work with and Trust on Daily Basis, making decisions as to What to Trade would not necessarily Exclude any category of Items. As for 'outsiders', if you consider Barter FOR Ammo as a One-Way Street, i.e. you'll trade stuff for Ammo, but Not the other way around, ther's no downside to this either.
    I do agree completely with the Idea that .22LR is going to be the way to go for small-game Hunting and (limited, short-range) Defensive Fires, the Centerfire stuff needs to be conserved for when it is needed for the Tactical Situations of Long Range or Lots of Enemy.

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    1. No, rimfire is NOT for small game. It is what you will be relying on for a smokeless weapon when all else is gone. Harvesting small game is a waste of resources. Store meat now, to give you time to learn how to kill small game by other means.

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  11. Yes. Anything in short supply will be magic, until Walter M. Miller writes about society restarting . . . oh. I'll stop there.

    (Read that book in high school and enjoyed it - remember Lord Bison, not all has to be a documentary!)

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    1. I love PA fiction. Done right, which it rarely is. And to me personally, Miller didn't do it right. Perhaps I'm prejudice from the artsy fartsy style.

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