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Friday, September 30, 2016

the forever gun book 5


THE FOREVER GUN BOOK 5
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note: the last two books of the Lord Conrad series are on KU ( here's one )
The first of the series were much better of course ( authors page )
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RIMFIRE ARSENAL

Before we cover alternate calibers ( hint: there aren’t that many so don’t get too excited ) I’ll go ahead and cover the original.  You can still go with rimfire if you so wish.  There are a couple of different strategies to employ to keep the cost down.  One of the things I like about rimfire is that I can stay away from semi-automatic weapons.  True, I bought a tube fed semi at Wal-Mart for a whole $99.  But that was what they were offering at the time I had come a-shopping with tax return money and the firm decision not to leave without a complete kit ( well, okay, I had to come back the next week for more ammo ).  It was a Better Than Nothing firearm.  But I was never happy with it.  The parts being plastic and the metal being barely adequate, the fact that is was also a semi stuck in my craw even more.  I ended up replacing it nearly a decade later with bolt actions ( I fought buying more guns that whole time as I was focused on food and ammo ).

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I now have one of those kids starter rifles, the single shot bolt with scope ( Cricket, or Grasshopper or something cute like that ) for $150.  The only reason I got it was the extremely low weight.  I don’t envision being able to survive long term mobile, but it still seemed like a good idea to have a rifle weighing next to nothing.  The other rifle, at an INSANE cost of $225, is a five shot bolt action with heavy barrel.  I figure that one is what I want for my 100+ yard gun.  As I purchased a revolver pre-Y2K, I already had my sidearm.  If things go south quick, a sidearm counters the limitations of a single shot long gun.  The great thing about the bolt action rifle and the revolver?  You probably don’t need ten thousand rounds.  With $400 cost for the weapons, an additional $600 gets you your ammo ( or, at least 6k of it-not too god awful shabby, if not perfect.  Admittedly, ten thousand rounds is arbitrary to a certain degree ).

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Another option to reduce the cost of a rimfire forever gun is to reload your ammo.  Go to


For under a hundred bucks you can buy a reloading tool for the 22 LR rimfire.  If I recall correctly, additional primer material and powder is about two or two and a half cents a round.  Even three isn’t bad.  Anything more, not so much due to the limitations of the caliber.  Just make sure you can hammer back out the firing pin indentation on the rounds.  Otherwise, this could become a serious issue for reliability ( if the pin hits in the same previous dent, you get a misfire ).  That same company also sells a tool that makes a #11 percussion cap out of an aluminum can for your black powder gun ( I imagine you buy the same or similar primer fluid as for the 22 ).  If you already have a BP rifle or revolver, that is great news.  I still wouldn’t be exited enough about it to make it my Forever Gun, though, unless you already have the weapon. 

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You of course don’t NEED a sidearm to go with your rifle, but to me it seems that $200 is not too much more for piece of mind.  But of course, it does have to be within your budget.  I do NOT recommend a semi-auto in rimfire pistols.  Not just because I’m adverse to semi’s in general, but more so because of the added cost and the problematic nature of the weak round reliably cycling.  One thing you might think on is the possibility of archery with a back-up rimfire revolver.  Not that this would be my first choice, but if money is a big deal it might be something to think about.  You can get a nearly free bow by building your own PVC bow ( get the book, or at least watch You-Tube videos to get an idea if the book is a worthwhile purchase ).  And a revolver and 3k of rounds runs you just $500. 

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So, let’s place this all side by side financially. 

Rifle only and half the ammo-$700

Bolt and revolver with only half the ammo- $900. 

Both weapons plus reloading-$850 [ see below for prices ]

Revolver with half ammo and archery-$700

Revolver/archery plus reloading half ammo-$500

Factory ammo, 10k, plus both weapons-$1400

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[ reloading costs assuming three cents a round-with salvaged lead, only powder and primer ]

The cost of the priming compound is one cent a round ( $20 makes 2k primers ).  I assume an additional two cents for smokeless powder, although I have no exact figure.  The reloading tool is about $75.  If you wish to resize the brass you need an additional $85 die.  Without this die you need to use the same rounds in the same gun.  I have no problem with this myself, as I have a Lee Loader for my Enfield’s and have the same issue after neck-size-only.  But beware you can’t mix up your revolver and your rifle rounds.  To some this might be an issue.  I personally don’t think so, as you either have time to save fired brass safely in a tactical situation, or you just leave them on the ground as you retreat.  But your mileage may vary.  I’ll just call the tool cost total at $75.  Original 1k rounds at $100.  9k reloads, $90 in primer material and $180 in powder.  $450 total.  Half ammo is $75 kit, 500 factory rounds at $50.  4k reloads is $45 in primer and $90 in powder for a total of $260.

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33 comments:

  1. The cheapening of guns has been with us for a while now James. My Stevens model 9478 (purchased in 1978) came with plastic parts and a cast hammer that snapped on me. My Rossi .22 Gallery gun (1980's Brazilian) jams fairly often. And my brothers Marlin .22 semi-auto has this nifty little trick it performs after it starts to get dirty. The shell actually fires while not fully in the chamber :shock:

    I still have a whole box, and then some, of unfired 12ga shells from Walmart from back in the days when they were $3.25 a box. Quite a few .22's as well, so I'm pretty good in that dept.

    I already own several blackpowder guns because I love them. I'd love more than anything to own a flintlock musket, but at a $1000 plus dollars it's not practical or in the cards, so that ship sailed back in the 1980's. I'll probably purchase about 16lbs of Pyrodex (Blackpowder substitute) and a few thousand caps in the near future.

    One note about cap and ball revolvers. You can add a cartridge conversion cylinder with many models to increase the versatility, and switch back and forth between the two as needed. But the conversion cylinders are around $300, so unless you already have the revolver, I probably wouldn't recommend it. No paper trail though, just so that you all know.

    With regards to the .22 rimfire reloader James, my personal take is that it's probably not worth it. The .22 cases use the old style balloon head cases that most, if not all of the old 19th century cartridges used. Some of the .22 firing pins strike the case pretty hard, and returning that case head to its original form could prove to be a challenge. It might be better to just spend the extra money in more cartridges. Personally, I'd forego the rimfire option, and just get a small .22 cal centerfire, something like a .22 Hornet, .222, or the like.

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    1. My .45 front site flew off at about box #3 of ammo. I thought it was just because Springfield Armory sucked. Now you tell me its all guns? Dammit!

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    2. Small .22 centerfire is what Uncle Sam picked to guard B-52's (M-16A1), but you can avoid all of the user and self-loader problems by getting a Handi-rifle or a magazine-fed bolt-action that fires Uncle's cartridge. He has Billions & Billions of rounds waiting on pallets in bunkers, and some will always slip out into commerce if the factories are not putting enough into the hands of the AR-15 shooting public. There are many millions of rounds in private hands (undocumented locations) so there won't be a physical shortage for a long time for the careful accurate shooter with a reloading kit.
      Unless there is a war, or a shooting "disorder" on US soil, then there will be much reloadable brass everywhere, but not many ready cartridges for sale. This is when to use your entrenching tool and keep low. Good thing you have all those buckets of wheat and a quiet hand-grinder.

      "Now you tell me its all guns? Dammit!"
      It's everything. Toasters, pocket knives, shovels, cars, bicycles...
      It's a World Made of Cheap Automatic Breakage Parts. There are people making expensive permanent-repair parts to keep an otherwise pretty-good design running, but at 30% of the original machine (and no discounts!). Volquartsen fixes your Ruger, and Beretta sells "metal guts parts kit" to build a decent new 92 from the plastic-action new 92fs (so it will be almost as good as a 1970's 92S), GM Performance Parts lets you fix the BS in the Chevy. M-4's and M-16's are built of lowest-bid/barely-works parts, so GI's spend their own money and risk punishment to install better parts in their weapons to add reliability. "Upgrades" are a huge industry.

      pdxr13

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    3. Perhaps not all James, but many of those guns that I mentioned were well known brand names. Maybe this wasn't the case with the top end guns, but I clearly remember that even my Browning double barrel which was $500 back in 1980, had stamped right on the receiver “Assembled in America with Japanese components”. Now we all know that the Japanese are capable and produce some quality products such as cars and motorcycles. But even as a kid in 1980, I couldn't help but feel somewhat slighted upon reading that my top of the line American Browning shotgun was in fact Japanese.

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    4. Call me old fashion, but when you sell me a tool that my life depends on, I expect it to work not be yet another corporate profit at my expense. It is one thing to sell me a pair of pants that only lasts half as long, quite another to sell me a gun that fails on me as I'm defending myself. I expect things made from 2008 on to be iffy quality, I just had no idea the stuff from '80 on could be as bad. I guess that old Enfield is looking better and better.

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    5. I bought the Marlin SS60 some 15 years ago and I'm mostly happy with it and have had no problems as you've described. It's tube feed and holds 17 LR and that's the only issue I have with it. While it's nice to be able to fire 17 before needing to reload, reloading takes a long time. In that regard I wish I bought the Ruger with the rotary mag. Less capacity but you can change out the mags in seconds.

      Careful with them cheap Walmart Winchester brand 12ga shells. I bought a bunch of them too about 10 years ago. 100 to a box for I think less than $10 per. #7-1/2 shot I think. They shoot well in my 100 year old Winchester model 12 (unregistered to me - it was my grand dads and then my dads and will eventually go to my son) but they swell up in the chamber after firing in a newer Remington 870. Have to use a 3/4" wood dowel to get the empty back out of there. I have spent considerable time with the dremel and stone honing the chamber but the shells simply swell too much after firing. The model 12 has had thousands upon thousands of rounds through it as it has put food on the table for much of the 20th century so it's as loose a $2 hor. Could probably just jamb powder down the pipe and some nails and it'd still fire.....

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    6. Isn't there some way to use PVC tubes to make a quick 22 tube reloader? Some vague memory from long ago.

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    7. Here's one using an old arrow:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xT9gE4ucIE

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    8. My brother has the Marlin Model 60 ghostsniper, 17 shot, circa 1980's. Sounds like you have the same one, but the stainless version. I just asked him about it and he said that in a few instances, the shell case actually “banana peeled” on him upon firing. It only does it when it starts to get dirty, but still. It could just be an anomaly with this particular gun, and the gun overall is a good one. To be on the safe side though, I'd probably make it a point never to buy this particular model.

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    9. The Ruger, is far and away a better gun than the Marlin 60.
      With the new Ruger 25 round mags, even better !

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    10. @Spud, oh dear, I hadn't heard of the 25 rdr's. That's the clincher right there. I gotta have me one.

      @Anon, I don't understand how the shell could banana peel while in the chamber. The only thing I can think of is the ejector finger snatching a strip out of the side, as I've seen my 870 rip the flange off a walmart 12 ga shell that was stuck, but even that doesn't click in my brain.

      None the less the Marlin isn't a serious tactical gun for the reasons we've mentioned. Now I gotta go find me a Ruger store.....

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    11. Isn't a Ruger dangerously close to the $300 mark? Sure, they are the best, but still!

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    12. Yes they are right around $300 depending on model.
      Consider though, that it's a lifetime gun. Unless the round is defective, it is very dependable. You can't state this with the less expensive 22's.
      Being frugal is a worthy cause, but being cheap on things which your life could well depend on...well, that is foolish in my opinion.
      My gun purchasing days are over...however I'm sure glad this was one area I did not scrimp on. In today's world getting ten thousand rounds of 22 would be pricey. But consider that you can carry 500 of them compared to weight of the normal load out of battle rifles.

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    13. Ruger 10/22 blued wood stock can be as low as $159 on-special at Bi-Mart (+$10 background check). Stainless Synthetic Take-Down 10/22 is top-priced model of this weapon before going to the custom-shop models. Most peep's don't have enough flush-fitting factory 10-round magazines. I have all kinds of 25 round mag's (encourage mass-fire ammo consumption), but the factory 10 is the most-compact for the rounds and won't get caught in brush.

      The Ruger upgrade trigger pack is a worthwhile improvement. Drop-in monkey-simple.

      Cricket is a great little carbine! Put "adult" stock on and have fun.

      pdxr13

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    14. Remember, here we are trying the Bic Approach, not the absolute cheapest unless unavoidable. I was telling everybody to avoid the cheapest war surplus bolt gun, over and over again.

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    15. I got a Chinese Norinco copy of the old Remington tke down pump action 22lr and I was having issues with feeding problems with it till I started using cheap bulk Remington 22lr ammo. Remington 22lr ammo is a little pointier than most other brands and feeds better in tubular magazines. If your having feeding issues with a tube mag 22 give Remington ammo a try. Aussie

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  2. Operating under the assumption that some ammo will be available . I just bought an H&R 12 Ga. for 100$ will order the short lane pack and stack chamber adaptors for 70$ plus 9mm and 45 Apc. for 45$ more.I will have my 1 gun for any of the 10,000 + rounds on hand spread over 7 caliber for 215$.I am set between on hand and scavenged.

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    1. Before you order those Short Lane adapters, there is a direct correlation between the length of the adapter and the accuracy. The short adapters have miserable accuracy, the longest one has excellent accuracy but also weighs more and is more expensive.
      Peace out

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    2. The short ones match with 3 or 4" barreled handguns as far as groupings. the long ones almost match cowboy cartridge lever actions. As with anything there are trade offs. Some can be addressed with changing sights.

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    3. Its not only that, but the longer adapters are also much heavier as well. Remember - you are filling in a .70 bore with a solid steel bar with a .22 hole in the center. I know this as fact, as I have an 18" 30-30 Winchester MCA adapter for my 20 gauge Savage - it adds at least a pound and a half. A 22 bored model would weigh more for sure.

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    4. And if you ever do need to use the adaptors, the increased weight will matter naught. You'll at least still have a firearm with ammo to defend yourself.

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  3. My brother in law and I bought marlin model 60's in the late 1970's/ we shot thousands of rounds of cheap lead bullets through them with no problems. I don't think we ever cleaned them....

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    1. Now, with bore snakes, barely cleaning them is easier than ever.

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  4. I own the very similar Chipmunk, the wood stocked earlier version of the Crickett. It has a little space that you can place a 'kit' inside the synthetic stock of the Crickett. I have a hard time getting my cheek down enough to use the iron sights, but it works in a pinch.

    Good shooting !

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    1. The kit contains room for five shells and a piece of hard candy for emergency rations! For water, leave the gun outside and lick off the dew in the morning. Almost made the list for SERE equipment.

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  5. Anon here that posted about the Marlin Model 60 problem. I found some information online about this particular problem. Again, could just be a problem with a select few, and not this model overall, but my brother must have got one of the bad ones.


    “rolla91 wrote: Well I normally don't have any problems with the bulk 22LR other than a misfire here or there but I was sighting in my new scope with a new box of federal and shot about 50 uneventful shots before having a casing blow up backwards in my marlin model 60W. Luckily no apparent damage was done other than making me deaf for a few seconds. There was no barrel obstruction, the gun was clean and oiled, there was no damage to the projectile that would lead me to believe that it came into contact with something causing it to fail to leave the barrel.”


    “randkl wrote: Well, you posted it so you must assume you're going to get opinions....so here's mine.

    Ammo that detonates out of battery, which is what you had, isn't the fault of the ammo, it's the rifle. Unless the casings were so out of size that they couldn't chamber all the way, it was a mechanical difficulty, not an ammo one. Hell, even if they couldn't chamber, your rifle still detonated it out of battery so it's still at fault. Bottom line is it was your rifle, not the ammo.”



    “rextex wrote: Some times dirt in the firing pin will make it stick out and hit the primer before the action is closed all the way. I had this happen with a pistol once.”


    http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=192666


    Keyword search: marlin model 60 shells exploding in chamber


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    1. Keyword: buy American because they are such high quality.

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    2. I did read something during my search James that indicated that Marlin had sold out to someone else circa 2005, and that quality had suffered since then, though I didn't confirm it. The thing is, I don't think that there is anything that is actually “American Made” anymore. As I mentioned in my original example, even my $500 Browning, a lot of money in 1980 dollars, was Japanese.

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    3. Some good stuff out there. Rare. It does amaze me that Japan, after 30 years of depression, still turns out quality and we, after a mere eight, churn out cheap plastic crap. Just like Russians gain freedom as we lose it.

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    4. SKS without a firing pin return spring were famous for emptying the magazine on release of the bolt if the "inertial-return" of the firing pin failed by excessive filth jamming it. Of course, early Russian models had a return spring, and you could buy a $25 kit to add one to your Yugo. SKS fixed as best as I could with TechSight and folding stock, sold to a 100# young man who fit it better.
      Japan makes good guns on computer-controlled machines. They aren't "finished" (user-project to polish parts), but they work and are cost-competitive. Howa 1500 is more than okay, esp. when under $400 at Bi-Mart.

      pdxr13

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  6. Maybe its because I live in a country were pistols are so highly regulated, kinda like wanting what you cant have, that I believe pistols are very important to own. In a PSHTF world being able to be constantly armed while appearing not to be is a great advantage. I do own pistols and am well aware of the limitations. I think the main benefit of a pistol is to fire a few shots at a attack to make them take cover while you leg it out of there ASAP, If you can lay a bullet on his hide that's a bonus but not really that important. Firing a pistol will also immediately alert other close by that are hopefully friendly/part of your group that trouble is afoot. A little more enforces should be given to pistols Mr Dakin. Ruger black hawk single actions are all that's needed for the above senerio and are simple and dependable and will still be going strong after your grand kids are old and grey.
    Aussie

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    1. Pistols definitely are useful-it is just that if you are on a severe budget they are best left alone. You can do more with a rifle but no pistol than a pistol without a rifle.

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