Saturday, April 7, 2018

other ammo 1 of 2


OTHER AMMO 1 of 2
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note: remember, this PA trilogy is on sale for another week.  Here is one of them:
https://amzn.to/2uRoFiX
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Alrighty then.  Here’s that article on stocking the other kind of ammo.  Not what you need but what you might need.  Not the caliber you have but that which will be useful in all those cheap guns their owners no longer have ammunition for.  For example, I refuse to use more than three calibers, and I would be okay with two.  Of course, 303 British.  Rimfire.  And the third optional 357/38.  I only own one gun in the last caliber, and past a few boxes of 357 I only have one case of 38.  This is my nice to have but not critical handgun.  But I also have a rimfire revolver, which is both my rimfire rifle back-up and my 2 is 1 handgun.

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The reason I would buy OTHER calibers is not because I plan on replacing my current arsenal.  It would be so that post-apocalypse I would have fodder for other weapons should they become available.  Now me, personally, I see little need to do this on my limited budget.  But if I had an uncontrollable urge to go buy another firearm, instead of doing that I would just buy cases of ammunition for the future perceived weapon.  You cannot go too far wrong buying 5.56 for everyone’s poodle shooter.  That will most likely be the guns littering the landscape.

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Because the AR is a nice little friend who is actually from Lucifer, who whispers sweet nothings into your ear.  “Shoot me!  Look how sexy I am!  I’m semi-automatic!  Oohh, big boy!  That’s it!  Fire!”.  Because in today’s paramilitary manuals, you must master three things.  Carrying enough equipment so as to embarrass the laziness of a mule.  Suppressive fire.  Any other tactic that uses copious amounts of ammunition.  You might as well just condense them all into one all encumbering natural law: firepower.  We started out in the trenches with submachineguns and shotguns, topped out in thirty cal rifles for the second war, then settled down into a round between the two as a compromise.  The important thing always remains, however, Firepower.

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Does this remind you of anything?  How about the birth of American Empire, the War Of Northern Aggression.  Industrial merchants churning out copious amounts of everything, to deliver walls of lead on the battlefield ( emulating the power of the day, the English, who started out filling the air with arrows and then went on to filling the air with lead.  Hey, it is only poor people in the ranks, right? ).  This solves two problems at once.  It enriches the secondary power structure ( industrialists-the primary are of course the bankers who daren’t soil their hands with anything other than money ) and it channels societies aggressive trouble makers into the military where they learn how to fight the wrong way.

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Much is made of all the returning veterans being a force for good in the upcoming Freedom Army ( such as when you read “and they’re pissing off all the folks they trained to fight” or similar ).  And vets are great.  They have OJT.  But did they learn to fight as a Industrial Army soldier or as an insurgent?  An infantryman’s job is to hold ground and protect the heavy weapons.  An insurgents job is make sure it becomes too costly for the invader to stay.  Do these two jobs sound anything alike?  I’m certainly not discounting the experience of combat.  That can only be learned the hard way, and my hat is off to the folks that have.  But you need the right tactics to go along with that.

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Most of the vets, and all of the posers, will be employing Civil War tactics and strategy.  Almost nobody is going to be fighting like a guerrilla, despite being taught the lesson from the Philippines, Vietnam and Afghanistan ( setting a few IED‘s, when just a replacement for heavy weapons, doesn‘t make you an insurgent if you are still fighting second generational warfare ).  Meaning all their shiny AR’s and 9 mils are going to be out of ammunition oh so very quickly.  And while a few folks actually deep larder ammunition, most are too busy buying more guns. 

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I know how sexy guns are.  I’d own a lot more than I do, if I hadn’t been forced to choose between them and food and food accessories.  I’ve bought plenty of guns, just because.  But a Pretty Pony Prepper allows himself to fall to the Siren call of Just Because Guns.  A serious survivalist minimizes his arsenal to bare bones.  If you have back-up duplicates, that is one thing.  But just having lots of guns because they are cool, well, that is fine and dandy if you have the extra cash, but certainly NOT cool if your primary post-apocalypse guns lack enough ammunition because you bought extra guns instead of extra ammo. 

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So, you buy your primary PA guns, and stock the crap out of ammo.  Then you duplicate those primaries.  If not the same weapon, the same caliber ( for instance, no need to buy extra AR’s if your back-up rifles are bolt action using the same ammo ).  Then, you stock even more ammo.  Ammunition is far more important than guns.  This is so self evident that I cannot believe it even needs to be said.  Stocking guns rather than ammo is like stocking MRE’s instead of wheat.  You are only focused on short term.  Even if you aren’t a survivalist, you stock the crap out of ammo just in case the government gets a bit uppity. 

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Even if you aren’t a survivalist, you stock the crap out of ammunition because the price will seriously rise again, completely independent of politics.  With that teaser, I’ll continue tomorrow.

END ( today's related link https://amzn.to/2q4hz5O )
 

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54 comments:

  1. One way to stock up for ammunition you don't have is :
    Step 1 : collect all reloadable cartridge cases you find at your local shooting range
    This step costs nothing. It may involve some inventory skills from you but nothing that costs money. Be sure to take the empty boxes for the cartrdiges as well.

    Step 2 : Buy reloading dies for the calibers. This is where you separate common calibers from rare ones. Lee has cheap but sufficient reloading dies in its RGB product range (green boxes). I consider that 100 cases is a minimum quantity necessary to justify the expense of a set of reloading dies. Usually reloaders of rare calibers are not stupid, and know the dies for them are expensive. Don't expect to find them at much discounted prices on ebay - although, of course, I can be proven wrong. If you can't resize/reload the rare calibers, you can always keep the brass for barter.

    Step 3a : buy primers for the brass. This can be done in small batches if finances are a problem.
    Step 3b : stockpile powder.
    Step 3c : stockpile bullets.

    These three steps are meant to be made in parallel : you can stumble unto a retiring reloader's stash (my case), or bargain bins, or sales, marketing actions etc. It means you get a wide array of components, which are not necessarily compatible one with the other.

    Step 4 : get mould to cast your own bullets. This is the moment when you make a significant investment in this. It would make sense if you're overanxious and decide that you will depend on NOBODY else. or if you want bragging rights (hint : not a survivalist's most sound strategy). or if you think it's cool.

    At that stage and further (stage 5 : get bullet swaging gear for four-digits prices) you're basically setting up shop in Bartertown, this will be one of the ways with which you intend to do business.

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    1. The Keroscene Survivalist Dude ( link at my web page ) has a book out on how something like only three powders will reload almost everything-something to think about buying as a reference. You can't buy the booklets anymore, I think you have to buy all his books on a CD or something similar. But check it out ( I'd look it up for everyone but the books are deep stashed and it would be a major endeavor, plus he deserves your support ).

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    2. There is also one powder that will reload everything, that being the blackpowder; albeit at a greatly reduced performance. Just saying, it’s quite versatile that way. And it would just about be impossible to blow up a modern gun with it, unless you’re Super Dave Osborne :D Though if you wanted to be reload shotshells with it, you’d be better off with the all brass shells.

      Another consideration, should you not come across many weapons; stock additional pipe of a common size for the homebuilt, should it come to this. Seems that there were a few pipe diameters that were rather versatile.


      “Based on the chart above, a .22 rimfire cartridge would fit in an 1/8” Schedule 40 pipe. In fact, as the diameters are the same, .22 short, .22 long, .22 long rifle, and .22 magnum, could all be fired in a gun made from such pipe.”

      “A .44 special, .44 magnum, .45 auto rim, .45 Colt, and .410 shotgun, will all fit in a 3/8” schedule 40 pipe. No drilling is required.”

      P. 87 and 89 of Homemade Guns And Homemade Ammo by Ronald B. Brown.

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    3. Super Dave. Mr. Hand. Kids in the hall. Good times.

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    4. Do you mean the book by Miles Stair,"Survival Reloading"? His book lists IMR4895, HERCO, and Red Dot.
      Peace out

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    5. That's the book. Thanks for looking it up.

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  2. As for the "guerilla" warfare aspect, I would like to point out to the book "They Fought Alone" about the resistance movement set up by Colonel Fertig in the Mindanao during WW2. They were on their own and basically had to cannibalize what the Japanese were using. They made some primers themselves by taking the mercury from thermometers, and grinding some brass rods into bullets, but that was it. Only through ressupply by submarine could they gain some significance.

    Guerilla warfare means that your guerillas get supplied by another power, i.e. you're getting sponsored. (try to think about Hunger Games, and how the cause has tolook "sexy" on TV for that support to be OK...)
    So yeah in case of a collapse everything will be depleted quite fast.tehre are a lot of hungry people who won't die politely in their beds. Those who remain alive will be dangerous, most probably crazy, and routinely violent. So weaponry will have to be around, but ammo will run out relatively fast.

    A stockpiles gives an edge, of course, but also attracts attention. If only because of the intrisic value : it has more value than gold, in that context...

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    1. "They Fought Alone" was great military history but close to worthless as a instruction manual, so be warned.

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  3. Yes Jim, other-ammo, is a viable stocking/barter/future usage strategy. I had the pleasure of being gun store manager and wish to share observations with minions, as part of your article series. Minions, if possible should have "some" other (common) caliber ammo in reserves. I would say one or two combat loads (@200 round loads of military rifle categories) of a paticular caliber. One load for action with found gun one in reserve. 100 rounds of (common) caliber handgun ammo will suffice. Stay with common military/leo/defensive/practical hunting calibers. Don't go over board with quantities (not cases and cases of such) or a over large catalog of diversity in types of ammo,(HALF DOZEN OF EACH) of guns you do not possess or use. Minions can spend their money in a lot of other important areas too. Seal-label-securely store said items well. It will be like finding a vein of gold with a eureka!-erection when you extract your stash for a new found-aquired gun. Thank you.

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    1. Of course, this is one of those "for the prepper that has everything", like precious metals are.

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    2. Great advice anon 8:12. I'd recommend sealing off each 20-round cardboard box with its own Ziploc bag, and then only put them in a larger box for carrying.

      I also Ziploc-seal primers, powder, jacketed bullets and some brass.

      There is a delicate balance between investing time in reloading rounds (thus expending components) and keeping components handy. for instance, if you have brass for .30-06, 7,5 Swiss, 7,5 French and .308, they all use the same bullet, but what should you reload ? My choice has to reload in multiples of 20, to keep oversight.

      The processes that take by far the most time revolve about resizing, so this could be done in advance. Once your case has been cleaned, resized and trimmed, reloading it takes little time.

      (That said, in all honesty, it's been years since I've reloaded cartridges for which I don't own a weapon...)

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    3. Two questions to Anon 8:12 regarding combat loads : are these loads intended for semi-auto rifles or bolt-action rifles ?
      I would see 100 rounds as sufficient for bolt-action rifles, what would you say ?

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    4. 8:12 reply, some are dual:semi/bolt. Either/or if it is prolific enough caliber it will have it's own built in value. It won't hurt to lay it in, as long as one stays in a half dozen or so variety, along with one or two combat loads of each flavor. Stay frosty.

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    5. Having a 100 rounds for the most-popular weapons sold in your area in the past 50 years would be a great thing, after your food/water/junkland situation, as well as a stash of a few months of working income (6 months of survival currency) are secured. The list is right from the early years of Rawles (before $9000 thermal scopes for each child became "mandatory") with the top3 being UncleSam's list of 5.56NATO/7.62NATO/9x19mm (with appropriate projectiles for your use, maybe not all FMJ). The next few will be slightly-older USGI, like .30-'06, but ComBloc weapons flooded the USA in the 1980's/1990's, so 7.62x54R and 7.62x39 are very-common. .300WinMag and .243 are common at sporting goods stores that carry hunting rifles. A box of .300Savage cartridges might be worth as much as a rifle (2 deer?) to someone with one and low-ammo. Pistols do not need many cartridges to be useful for a long time (pistol cartridges wear out from carrying and should be rotated into practice firing rounds), so a Nagant revolver with 4 boxes of ammo and accessories is as functional as a .38sp or .38Super, a popular Mexican revolver, as long as the supplies hold out. I appreciate vintage pistols like Tokarev and their SMG brothers for how cheap the ammo once was.

      My strategy is to stock deep ammo for the big 3 (+ .22lr), and keep ammo for others as I find it at estate sales. There is an amazing amount of hunting rifle ammo out there in quantity of 12-18 cartridges partial-box. The lithographed boxes are valuable-collectable, and the ammo is no-value.

      Don't forget magazines. Many newer pistols are no-shot weapons without a magazine inserted (Dremel, or upgrade that BS away!). Semi-auto rifles will malfunction without good magazines (clunky single-shot). AR-magazines were designed to be semi-disposable (aluminum feed lip fatigue) but the best plastic and good stainless steel mags last a long time. Attached indestructable magazine is one reason I love SKS.

      pdxr13

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    6. Stripper clipped rifles are the survivalists best friend. I want to add "with bayonet", but I might get audience raspberried.

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  4. I think it was Ragnar Benson that said you don't need more than 200 rounds for your sidearm. That is because if you are using your sidearm as a primary weapon, you are doing something wrong and will be lucky to use that much. A sidearm is used to get back to your rifle, which you never should have put down in the first place.
    5.56 is a good choice to stock for donor weapons, but like you, I have a 303 and would probably like to have some 308 first, just in case a donor rifle doesn't materialize and I need reloading components.

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    1. Good point on 308 rather than 223. Small rifle primers wouldn't be doing you too much good in that scenario. ( ps-good on you with the Queens Own battle rifle ).

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    2. With all due respects to Ragnar

      What about the scenario of Soldiers on the street. They're not going to let you mill about with a long arm. That's where your handgun comes in handy. And if the Soldiers hang around long enough those 200 rounds *may* disappear pretty darn quick after a couple of disagreements with bad guys.

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    3. I think the low number of rounds would still somewhat apply, with limited clandestine encounters around soldiers ( in town, against criminals ). The long arm for home invasions.

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    4. If you shoot at soldiers in groups who are at all proficient, they will hunt you down as a house-cleaning chore. Observe the soldiers with eyes and binoculars, report the observation in a SALUTE report to your local neighborhood protection team captain. It might be time to GTFO.

      pdxr13

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  5. I'm trying to see how long it takes to fill the crawl space up with ammo. .22, .223, 9mm, 12ga. All in large plastic ammo cans (1000rds of .223 per) packed inside large rubbermade bins. As it is, 20,000rds doesn't even make a dent.

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  6. Caution about storage methods and locations. Food-saver vacuum seal if not in G.I. quality ammo cans. No storage below grade or with ample platform for flood-moisture. It can happen. Also remember of unintended consequences of a second responder (heroes with uniforms) sniffing around a "crime/accident/emergency" scene, friggin with your gear cause he's got a right (badge) to do so. Even if it was your neighbors b.s. or in the vicinity justification to initiate a search for the safety of the community or children at a school half a mile away. Stay frosty.

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    1. Yes, it is for the children. So pay your school taxes and give up your guns.

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    2. In my past life I was (legally) allowed to do literally *anything* in the performance of my duties. In practice it wasn't carte blanche but theoretically if I wanted your wall ripped out I could order it done, if I wanted your car I could take it, if I wanted the electricity grid shut down I could. It's only a matter of time before that law is clarified but as it currently stands.....

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    3. Let's hope dumb-assery prevails and they can't figure out how to be more efficient.

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  7. Boys and Girls, remember cardboard cases/boxes suck moisture out of the sky and hold-transfer said yummy rot to interior products, it is a recycled product anyway with a very short life cycle. Wood crates, although totally old school durable, dropped from helos in red smoke l.z.s and off of trucks going down dirt roads still are moisture sponges in static storage unless wrapping up ammo cans inside. Use 4 mil plastic roll visqeen/sheets from low life loewe's or home despot to wrap up already seal a meal stock piles. Just saying. Stay frosty!

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    1. Not trying to nitpick-but I believe the plastic sheets ( $50 and $100 for the two lengths-and well worth it if my roof is any indication ) are 6 mil, not 4.

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    2. You are thinkng, Lord Bison. 6 mil is good to go, but like wire gauge and sheet metal gauge the the thickness increases with a lower numerical number. (My best guess from shop class)for indoor bunker storage 6 mil will 'git er done' but as Lord Bison recomends for construction-blown out windows-wall replacement-cover yer ass with a 5×9 sheet in a FEMA camp, 4 mil is a few bucks more better investment. Whatever has higher cost at shelf tag and check-out is what is needed. The environment and weather are your only challenges right now. ( how easy!) Stay frosty!

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    3. I don't believe that is correct. Higher the mil in plastic sheet, the thicker. Go to the paint section, you can feel how thin the .007 mil is compared to 2.

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    4. Yes the number designation is actual thickness in mm

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  8. I don't think some 12 or even 20 guage shotgun ammunition would be wasted for backup. I'm guessing a lot of raiding would be during night time hours and the spread of shot shell would be advantageous over single projectile. Too, there are a lot of old single shot shotguns forgotten in closets or dusty corners. Somebody needs to feed the poor dears.

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    1. My only concern on shotshells is how long the plastic lasts. Is it forever if left out of the sun? Is the cheaper quality plastic being used now?

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    2. Walking the woods behind our house I have found empty shot shells made of plastic. The red ones have faded to pink/white and feel brittle. They cracked when I squeezed them. The green ones were less so. Cure: don't let the UV get to them.

      Anon at 3:58 got me thinking. My rubbermaids aren't air tight. I wonder if I put a 1lb bag of rice in each bin after putting a small knife slit in the side of each bag would absorb any moisture? Our crawl is completely enclosed, vents shut and the dirt floor is dessert dry to the point of dust. I think the ammo is safe but it'd be a bitch to find out it's not after 5 years. There are 4 bins down there right now and they are at least 100 lbs each and not easy to move around. Maybe I should have gotten the ones with wheels.

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    3. It sounds dry enough. I have close to zero problems year after year here in the desert. Absorbants can't hurt, but I wouldn't think its a issue in general.

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    4. It is humidity which is the enemy here. Dissimilar materials dissapate heat at different rates, as a consequence condensation occurs on the denser of the two. By all means the ammo must be stored in a vacuum, with desicant added before sucking the air out. If the container is not air Tite , then moisture will always continue to migrate. Because the powder is very dry, osmosis will suck that moisture into the ammo until saturated. This is true in the desert or jungle. The only difference is the rate of destruction. Seal it double then forget it

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    5. Damn, now I', all depressed. Thanks, buddy. :)

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    6. Thanks Spud, does it matter that the ammo boxes my ammo is in are the OD green plastic ones with O rings in the lid? I'm gonna order some desicants anyway.

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    7. Anything helps GS. Your only real guarantee would be vacuum packed though.
      Climate controlled room being best.
      For sure, if it is stored in ambient humidity here in Florida, it needs be in plastic containers. Trouble with them is that the o-ring is not a guarantee of a good seal. Perhaps use a bead of silicone sealant on the o-ring , for long term storage.
      I use pvc pipe with glued on caps

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  9. Plastic is o.k. better than olde skoole paper hulls. If the brass in base is not corroded good to go.shoot that basterd! A shot load of even #8 or #6 in the face or torso will take the fun out of your ass. Just saying.

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  10. If you were to find them outside they would be questionable. But a squeeze test should confirm the elasticity (compare them to some of your own that have not been exposed to UV). If they seem really rigid, or worst yet, crumble on you like they did on Mad Max, better then, then after being reloaded, and needing them.

    I do believe that there is still one manufacturer that produces the paper hulls. Believe it or not, these are actually superior to plastic when it comes to loading blackpowder (blackpowder eats some ferocious holes in plastic) but as would be expected, have short lives regardless.

    For the post apocalypse warrior that loves his shotgun, and plans on using it as a main weapon, I’d recommend getting at least a few of the brass shells linked below.

    https://www.cabelas.com/product/MagTech-Shotshell-Brass/739893.uts?slotId=0

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    1. If not the brass case, at least brass bases. Then you can make your own paper cases. And make sure to have ammonia stocked for cleaning the gun after shooting BP. Soap and water work, but ammonia is better. Swab all parts, then clean as usual. Don't wait on the swabbing part. Best to have a small container of ammonia with you in the field.

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    2. 8:16 here. I meant to start off by quoting your question on the reliability of shotshells found in the wild, so I hope that I didn’t cause anyone any confusion.


      “If not the brass case, at least brass bases”


      You mean that they sell shotshells without brass bases now? I guess it’s been a while since I’ve bought shotshells. I still have several Winchester AAA hulls, as well as many others. I also have a box of Walmart shotshells never opened (8 boxes) at the old school pre-ammo hike prices. Also still have my Mec 600 JR reloader. Don’t have enough powder, primer, and BB’s though. I guess that’s a hint to myself. I don’t want to wind up like the survivalist with his grand total of 2 shotshells :D

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    3. Ammonia will destroy the blueing though. I learned this the hard way, and never touched the stuff ever since.

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    4. Perhaps your area offers ammonia in very concentrated doses, compared to the normal watered down US offering?

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    5. 9:37- I'm by no means the final authority, but it was my understanding that the cheap shells have steel bases. From the reports of others, so I might stand corrected.

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  11. >> Perhaps your area offers ammonia in very concentrated doses, compared to the normal watered down US offering?

    Absolutely :)
    I've used it to see if I could remove lead & general mess from an old barrel, I used the industrial-grade stuff.
    That didn't remove anything.

    I ended up selling the rifle, the guy had a new barrel installed. This is why I always say : your rifle is its barrel. All the rest is used to insert a cartridge and extract its case, and aim.
    You may encounter problems with other stuff, but they are fixable. Nothing fixes a rotten barrel, you just have to replace it.

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    1. After being educated about the AR vs everything else barrel replacement, I've really started to take your "barrel IS the gun" saying very seriously. It makes perfect sense, and something I never thought of before.

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    2. Oh stop you're making me blush :)
      https://funcatpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/kitty-you-are-so-beautiful.jpg

      I am fortunate that in general I bought rifles with a good bore or barrel. My plan 14 years ago was to buy old, cheap weapons but it turned out differently because I wanted to test the different platforms/calibers and then only buy the chosen combination in quantity & in poor shape.

      I just stuck with the "test" platforms which were meant to be of good resale value (CZ is the definition of "good resale value" because nobody resells them in the first place, but keeps them instead) (no I don't get paid by CZ, it's just that word of mouth and experience are the best seeling methods - I never saw an ad for CZ, for instance, but in Europe they are everywhere).

      I was only after some years of observing and listening (it takes a much greater effort to hear than to talk) that I understood that a poor weapon, as cheap as it might be, was not a good investment.

      To provide an illustration : A Mosin-Nagant in "very good condition" is 250 USD, a new Savage Axis is 330 USD. I might be lucky with the Mosin but probably will not, whereas the Axis will very probably be a superior shooter to the Mosin from the get-go.
      BIC approach and all that :)

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    3. Back when the MN was way under $100, you could make a case for them. Now, I wouldn't touch them with your junk. Loved the cat picture, I could totally visualize it.

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    4. I enjoyed my $79 M91-30 and M44's. Cleaned then, shot them (with cheap Bulgy ammo!), sold at a profit to the Nugget Team. They are not as safe to the user as a modern or Western rifle if a double-charged cartridge is fired. Meow!

      pdxr13

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    5. Nugget team? I gotta hear this one.

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