Sunday, April 22, 2018

baby bullets


BABY BULLETS

Have you ever had a mini stroke, where you freeze up and you feel compelled to focus on one problem to the exclusion of all else?  You’ve probably all done this, such as when you can’t find out how to spell a word and it is one of those weird ones that aren’t intuitive and defy dictionary attempts but you just won’t give up on looking ( to this day I have a problem with “bureaucrat”.  I finally just taped it to the screen margins on my writing computer.  Hey, it comes up nowadays about as often as divine intervention in the Papist church did back in olden days ).  I couldn’t get that darn Lee-Enfield conversion to 7.62x39 out of my head.

*

I’m sure you all remember our conversation we just had over that.  And it isn’t even like I’ll ever go ahead and do it.  When you work for less so you don’t have to work for Da Man, you don’t consume past shelter and food.  You just don’t do it!  It is unseemly, it is.  My luck, the day I place my bulk order for powder and bullets, my computer breaks or I have to go to the dentist ( not to mention that little episode where the B-POD was vandalized.  Not that I NEED to replace all but two critical items-they were just back ups to back ups, and I image while nice to have I don’t need ALL of twenty five propane tanks-but spending more after that leaves a bad taste ).

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No, this was more of an intellectual exercise.  It was a problem I couldn’t get out of my head.  And if I’m obsessed with it, you get to hear all about it.  You few lucky bastards.  Even if I never have the supplies, I wanted to know how to convert my full power thirty caliber battle rifle down to a carbine round and back again as needed.  Not to say this doesn’t have practical applications, since ammo component conservation is never a bad idea, but first comes the study of a problem anyway.  A few months ago I was obsessed with the cost of manufacturing an AR-15 without paperwork, and that is NEVER going to happen absent fame and fortune creating far more of a financial surplus than I’m used to.

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Previously, I tried purchasing a chamber insert from the famous dude up in Alaska.  I had waited too long, however, as he no longer offered them.  I thought about a pistol round instead, but took minions warnings about barrel plugs seriously, besides not wishing to sacrifice the power.  I brought up to you recently cannibalizing steel case carbine rounds, which quickly became apparently a terrible idea.  So, last Friday, instead of writing, I’m obsessed with this damn idea, still ( I used to be focused on macro ideas and pursued them relentlessly, but since I’ve beat all those dead horses to death-the ones that interest me-I’m back to micro ideas.  ‘Tis in my nature to obsess I imagine ).

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I start reading up on how people convert surplus rifles to fire the 7.62x39 round by taking off the barrel, cutting off most of the threads, rethreading and then having shortened the chamber can turn their Enfield’s or Carinco’s into a carbine round shooter.  For the home tinkering machinist, it was thought this process wasn’t too difficult ( I’ll take their word for it ).  I imagine all those companies that, for a time, offered this service were probably just this kind of operation.  It sounded like a retarded idea to me, as you now have no flexibility as to what to fire, an intermediate round only without the full power option.

*

But the exciting thing is that I found a comment on this shooters forum that presented the solution of just under powering the regular 303 round to achieve the same results.  Now, please pay attention.  These are instructions presented as fact.  In other words, it’s some crap you read on the Internet.  So it could be true or it could be pure unadulterated farm animal feces.  I’m assuming that since nobody dog piled the poster and called him out as a troll, that there is a good chance of truth to his statement.  It seems that you can use one powder with much greater success than the others, H4895.  As long as you do not fall below 60% of the normal powder charge in your cartridge, this powder will ignite and perform properly, negating the issues of other powders not combusting as there isn’t enough in the larger case.

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So, you look at your loading data and take the regular charge, say 40gr.  Multiply that by .6 on your calculator.  In this case 24.  So as long as you don’t fall below 24gr your H4895 powder should ignite properly.  Now, unfortunately as is almost always the case, I didn’t note which shooters forum or what web page I got this information from.  So, I can’t remember if you took the average reload, the minimum or the maximum.  Just to be safe in my calculations, I took the max load, in my case with the 303 it was 45gr.  Which gives you the minimum load of 27gr.  I’d want it slightly more for a margin of error.  Remember, below 60% and this powder doesn’t work.

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If you were loading at 26gr, you’d get 270 loads per pound of powder.  At 30gr, it would be 230 reloads.  Placing the load about half way between should produce both reliable loads ( you don’t want a misfire in combat, all to save two extra cents ) and economics, giving you around 250 loads per pound of powder.  Taking into account HazMat shipping fees and shipping costs, if you bought eight pounds of powder you could get your powder for $30 a pound, all costs included.  That is twelve cents a round.  Buying a thousand bullets ( the 125gr .311 “Berry’s Superior Plated Bullets” from MidwayUSA, the same source as the powder ) after shipping sees you at another twelve cents per.  Add a primer for three cents.  27cents a reload.

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Granted, this doesn’t factor in case costs.  With the Enfield, your case life is never going to be great.  You can heat anneal every few rounds, putting the case neck in the camp fire and then water quenching, and you can neck size only, to increase case life.  But the 303 was never great for reloading.  It is good enough but never great.  By under powering it, you should also increase case life, but just keep in mind that while 27cents is the reload price, it isn’t the total cost long run.  To buy a 7.62x39 steel case after shipping is 22cents.  The two costs are not all that dissimilar ( if you buy less than a case of 7.62x39, it is more per round, just as it will be more per round to reload the 303 if you buy in smaller quantities ).

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Even factoring in case cost, you still might get lucky with the number of reloads and see an all inclusive cost of 33cents.  Still not a bad price at all.  And you can always power the round back up with the same powder.  I understand not many of you own an Enfield, or even if you do you don’t use it all that much.  But the information on the H4895 powder might still come in handy.  You can reload lighter rounds to reduce recoil and stretch out your powder supply, getting more rounds to fire for the same price.  Just another option.  I hope I haven’t screwed the pooch here, providing inaccurate information.  Although, that is what the minion comments are for, aren’t they?

END ( today's related link https://amzn.to/2J4Eg10 )
 
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73 comments:

  1. I would prefer to have authenticated load data from reputable source.(such as major bullet/powder MANUFACTURERS) A 'fellow' may "handload" some recipes that work. However, loads published by a manufacturer is probably more tested with proper equipment (test barrels with c.u.p./pressure measuring readings etc. They can afford more examples of testing for safety-liability etc. I loaded on a dillon progressive loader of both rifle and handgun calibers. I always stayed within specs (load data for that powder type-brand, due to burn rate etc. or only came down slightly (couple grains weight) from max loading for case longevity. A shooters safety and protection of gun from damage is worth staying in your lane in this regard. Like car parts, can't use one brand on another, "not designed-ENGINEERED for it"

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    1. I see your point, but wouldn't have considered this if I felt it was at all a afro-engineered project. The presenter of this idea seemed well versed in reloading and shooting. Keep in mind, professional advice isn't always right. Scientists giving a pass on chorine and floride, and nobody selling or making 7.62x54r warned about the dangers of the Mosin-Nagant as I did. Just saying.

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    2. I concur with Jim, one has to gather one own's experience with stuff. I know people who are not satisfied with the regularity or performance of manufactured ammo.

      I also have a healthy distrust for certain manufacturers that work like car manufacturers ( http://www.alloutdoor.com/2017/02/20/remington-recalls-yet-another-batch-rifles-faulty-triggers/ )

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    3. Was Remington the one they were talking about going bankrupt? It would figure.

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  2. You will want to mark the specific rounds (paint-coloring-etc) if your loading has dickered around the performance of that caliber. You may need your full power thirty caliber to penetrate barriers to get at a scumbag, penetrate equipment for detruction,etc. You may forget otherwise what is what, or be juggling ammo for the task at hand, you will have other things to be worrying about than that.

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    1. Absolutely, you can use nail varnish for that, you can find a large array of colours for 1 USD the tiny bottle (with included brush...)

      If you want your round to look really cool you can pain a ring on one variety and just the tip (just the tip !) on the ohter variety.

      I say that because colour enough is not good to differentiate, especially when you're trying to find the red ones using a red light / lightstick...

      The thing with the ring is that you can differientiate in the dark just by gently strocking that tip. This method works for other things ;)

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    2. ( Just the tip ). Those bastards removed Archer from Netflix. I had only watched the series twice. Now I can't get my fix. Another series I can watch again and again ( on Netflix ) is Brickleberry.

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    3. Agreed, it's best to positively identify them in a way that's easy to see under stress.
      My suggestion would be to use jacketed bullets for full power loads and lead bullets for reduced ones. A flat point on the slower lead bullet can make up for some of the punch lost with the lower velocity.
      And if you really wanted to get fancy and be even more versatile, search the web for discussions about using a #1 buckshot pellet over a small amount of shotgun powder to turn your 303 into a 22. (I use 00 buck over a small charge of Bullseye in my 338 for indoor practice loads and pest shooting.)

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    4. I'd think using the jacketed on both would be a performance increase, and at twelve cents per delivered rather affordable. But, I'm guessing from limited research. Seems a waste to sacrifice just for ID. I would both mark the case and have a separate ammo pouch for whatever is used less. Say, the belt ammo is anti-personnel and if you need to punch through a wall, your buttpack or similar stash. My thinking there is your regular ammo is where it is supposed to be and you have to work outside the norm to get your Performance+ rounds.

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    5. Good points! My biggest reason for the different bullet styles (round or flat nose vs. pointed spitzer) is that you tell which is which by feel. That might come in handy if it's dark and you can't turn on a light or don't have one. Of course, the flip side of that is that if it's too dark to see the bullet markings it's probably too dark to aim accurately, so you're probably just as well off to do as you noted. Anyway, just thinking out loud...

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    6. No harm in varied and numerous musings-leads to new solutions. I wonder if you can dum-dum a factory bullet or if they are too hard. On lead just a small tap of a phillips head screwdriver makes a good modification. That might be one way to dusk or dark differenciate. Never can tell if needed. What if you used a full power round to punch through a wall? Not that I'd want to waste bullets at night flushing from cover-but again, you never know.

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    7. Well Jim you're just so lucky to have an SMLE, because by the power of the magazine cutoff (got those ?) you can make your own, as the German found out : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl51NVkt6Sg&t=78m16s

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    8. No, not on my models. Mine are all middle of the war production.

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  3. Jim, keep your gun/loading as is, full boat 303-power. Buy and store away "some" smaller/popular intermediate calibers for pick-up,found guns. Just keep eyes/ears open for an intermediate-softer shooting gun. Only at great-screaming deal prices of course, like from a widow getting rid of one or some one hard up for cash.

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    1. This is just an alternate to stocking 223 and waiting for a battlefield gun replacement.

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  4. What's the point of all this under powering stuff?

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    1. Besides stretching components, one thing I have in mind is scoping an Enfield for this carbine round. With the increased weight of the rifle and the decreased power of the round, I can easily scope and shoot all day. Not so with the full power 303, which after one mag if fired too quickly grinds my shoulder to putty. To the point my already mediocre aim is seriously hindered.

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    2. My philosophy on underpowered Large Rounds is the following : full power cartridges are meant to penetrate cover, such as walls. Reduced power cartridges are meant for general purpose, because they still carry as much energy as a 7,62x39 cartridge. (you know, the one the US military always tries to copy but can't admit to. It sucks to have the feedback of all the troops and proxies who could compare the two...)

      (Flamewars are good for audience oh great Lord Bison of L'Oréal fame "because you're worth it")

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    3. You are firing a 7.62x39 bullet here, actually. With a smidge more power ( even without factoring in bolt verses semi ) out of a longer barrel. Win/win. I won't start on the 223.

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    4. Sounds like a job for one of those "limb savers".
      Unscrew the old one, screw on the new one. Maybe do a little sanding to trim it up nice. Altering powder loads sounds like the complicated (and expensive - in time and money) way to go about it. All you need is to get a fired bullet stuck in the barrel and that guns done for.

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    5. Not to pick nits, but couldn't other things plug up the barrel? Improperly stored surplus ammo? Can a partial burn happen if some moisture got into the case? Or does it all go bad? Am I grasping at straws, here? :)

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    6. Yes, yes, and yes, all of the above.
      If the ammo is questionable I certainly won't use it.
      Explosive material becomes unstable (vibrations) for a variety of reasons. Old rancid primers are especially dangerous.

      My father in law gave me a couple boxes of very old ammo (.38) that was covered in blue corrosion cause he had no use for it. Actually, he gave it to my wife to give to me (I wasn't there). If he had actually handed it to me I would have refused it. When my wife gave it to me I set it on the workbench and pondered what to do with it. I wasn't comfortable with it being around. Reminder: I was a demo specialist in the army so I'm sensitive to this stuff, knowing it's capabilities. I took my earth auger into the woods behind our house and drilled a 8" hole 3' deep and lowered that stuff gently down to the bottom and covered it up.

      All of my current ammo supply is stored in it's normal boxes inside plastic ammo cans along one wall in my office on a wood platform about 16" above the floor.

      Some may say I'm too cautious but I don't think so.

      As far as a plugged barrel goes, it will be deadlined on the spot, but possibly not permanently. If it's just the fired bullet with no cartridge or powder behind it it can probably be carefully pounded out and not damage the barrel. Maybe use an alum solid rod slightly smaller than the caliber and carefully pound it out from the muzzle end. Thats what I'd do. And then a good thorough cleaning with wire brushes afterward and some serious visual inspection.

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    7. And that's why I have several back-ups to my battle rifle.

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    8. Seldom have I read anyone as serenely and confidently ignorant as this ‘Ghostsniper.’ He tries to raise commonplace error to Great Truth by boastful claims to excellence (Note ‘Ghostsniper’ et al.) "A sound and fury signifying nothing.'

      I don’t give reloading advice on the ‘net due to the possibility of misunderstanding. Nevertheless, let me say that a number of methods exist to safety download your .303, thereby extending the life of your brass. The path you seem to find attractive, somehow converting a .303 chamber to 7.62x39mm, is a waste of time and effort.

      You want cheap? Cast your bullets and use a powder designed for cast bullets. Look for velocities around 1800 fps. Of course, casting take some research and practice, which your schedule might not allow.

      If you are having serious negative reaction to the recoil of your Enfield, you are probably holding it wrong. Thousands of students have convinced me that 'recoil sensitivity’ is either in your head, or in your holding of the rifle.

      Like your stuff.

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    9. You would have to reduce a load by quite a lot to cause the bullet to stick in the bore. And unless a person is deaf, or totally incompetent, they would know. In a round about way, this could also be an argument against semi’s. While the danger might be low, with a semi, it would be far easier to fire a quick follow up shot over a squib load, and if you were to do this, you would f _ _k yourself up good kemosabe! I actually saved some dummy one time from doing this. He was firing a .25 automatic (that he stole; I should have let him blow himself up) and fired on a squib load. I immediately and sternly warned him to not pull the trigger again. We drove the bullet out of the bore with a brass rod.

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    10. 6:57-I think you need to be more specific if you are going to call out a minion as being full of crap. That isn't my impression, by the way.
      9:59-good argument with the semi's. Damn, why couldn't I have thought of that? :)

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    11. Scatter a little bit of fag bait around and look what pops up. Anyway, I'll try to reign in my cautious nature.

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    12. How does one go about reigning in your cautious nature? I would think if anything, you grow MORE cautious as nothing you've seen proves you wrong, just right ( "damn, I KNEW I should have been more cautious. That'll learn me. Next time..." ).

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    13. I meant, pushing my cautious nature on others. I didn't think I was doing that but obviously a certain snowflake was offended. Maybe he's having a bad week, you called him out on his shitty attitude in another post. Dunno, don't care.

      Anyway, I wanted to thank you for the post on relocation. I posted a note on that article but blogger "snapped" and it didn't show.

      We've had relocation on our minds for a year or so and for the reasons you've mentioned, primarily socialist societal creep into our area. There is no fighting it because it has infected the county gov't and fighting gov't is like having 1 arm tied behind your back and the gov't has 3 extra arms. They wear you out through attrition. So we'll just pull up stakes and haul ass. Again.

      It is becoming more and more difficult to find affordable land that is not already heavily incapacitated by communist rule in this country. I guess it comes down to how much tyranny you are willing to put up with. Unfortunately for me, as I get older my tolerance level gets lower.

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    14. Everyone I've heard from that has gone abroad, as well as my experiences in the military, speaks of more freedom Out There than is normally admitted to, and far less Here. Just enough where I can keep an open mind ( but not actually take the plunge myself ). One thing nobody usually brings up is that in energy decline governments have less rather than more power, so it won't be the same thing as the Confederates or Nazi's. Those staying here won't necessarily be as worse off as assumed, and when you go elsewhere you might just be neglected also as the government pulls back to the urban core ( this doesn't insulate you from the locals, so that is still an issue to be solved ). Interesting times, I think most just need to keep in mind that one size doesn't fit all. We need creativity trying to survive, not dogma ( most written during the Cold War ).

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  5. If ti works you might have found the Holy Grail (or the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch).

    What I would do in your position is simply to try this out. If you're a member of the local shooting club (I wonder if you are, probably not) then they will have a chronograph, and thus you can record accurately that bullet's speed and thus its energy.

    At one moment or another things step from the realm of ideas into the realm of reality, where everything is more complicated.

    It sounds like a marvelous project though, to keep you busy but also to enlighten your brethren once more.
    Seriously, if your newsletter then your blog didn't exist the survivalist scene would like different. You're doing a great job debunking many idiocies.

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    1. Appreciate the compliment. You da bomb.

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    2. I must confess my impatience :) I immediately searched the internet for it. here are two versions of the article :
      https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/curioandrelicfirearmsforum/ed-harris-articles-for-reduced-loads-t2704.html

      The second one is updated :

      https://castbulletassoc.org/forum/thread/1387-the-load-is-13-grains-of-red-dot/

      I totally dig the Author's name , Ed Harris. Images of snipers at Stalingrad appear in my mind :)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemy_at_the_Gates

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    3. While "Enemy" was by no means bad, I found the subject better covered in this one:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Sevastopol
      I'm surprised anyone scanned the article. We really are bored and easily distracted, all of us.

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    4. You really cite a Russian movie as a reliable source of information? A movie? Russian? ". . . the perspective of Eleanor Roosevelt"? Get serious.

      No wonder you are impressed by "Ghostsniper."

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    5. Are you claiming Hollywood isn't chockablock full of propaganda, lies, self-interest and dangerous information?

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    6. No, I'm claiming any movie, a work of art at best, is not a substitute for real information. You can reference movies if you are talking about culture, since they do reflect culture, but certainly not about historic stuff.

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    7. I agree that you cannot always get factual history from a movie. But then, you cannot get that from government approved textbooks either. So, let me rephrase my original take on the movie. It seems to cover the event from another point of view that might be closer to the mark than a Hollywood system film did. "It seems" would be my operative emphasis.

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  6. I’ve done what you’ve talked about here before. Back when I had a Ruger Redhawk .44 magnum (which I wish like hell that I still had). I used this gun mostly for target shooting, and wanted light loads. Rather than purchase separate .44 special loads, I down loaded my loads. My father was using 28 grains of H110 in his gun (which is still under a max load) so I dropped mine to 22 grains; no problem. But a lot of it is dependent on the type of powder that you use. Some powders are dangerous if they do not fill the case, but to my knowledge, blackpowder is the main offender in this situation.

    As I recall, you have a Lee Loader for your .303? Have you consulted with the load data chart? The Lee Loader load chart usually starts off with rather mild loads, at least I know that it does with pistols; perhaps not with military rifles? I also noticed mention of a Chamfer tool to ream the primer pocket of military cases. If you don’t have one of these already it might be a good idea to get one (it also said that a pocket knife would work for this purpose, but it would dull it pretty badly I would think).

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    1. Plenty of already dull knives that aren't worth the effort saving, primarily kitchen types.

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  7. I've successfully done the 60% of max with H4895 in 30-06 loads some time back. The goal was to bring the load down to light 30-30 equivalent for a small-framed shooting friend of mine. It worked, but since then I've discovered that there's a cheaper way.
    In the Twelfth Edition of Handloader's Digest there is an article by C.E. Harris titled, "THE LOAD (Or: What you can do with 13 grains of Red Dot)", Harris described how to do a reduced load safely and inexpensively with Red Dot. (It was one of those serendipity things - Harris was looking for a way to use up a caddy of Red Dot left over from the time he reloaded for the trap shooting he no longer did.)
    He and his friends found that 13 grains of Red Dot made very good reduced loads as long as the following rules were adhered to (quoting from the article):

    1. The case must be of capacity larger than 35 Remington.
    2. The rifle must be of modern design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore of 30 caliber or larger.
    3. The bullet weight must be within the normal range for the given cartridge.
    4. Case fillers such as Dacron or kapok are neither recommended nor necessary.

    He noted that using cast or milsup bullets his cost was about 1/4 of what full power loads would run him.

    I'd be happy to scan the article and email you the pdf if you'd like.

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    1. If you would, e-mailing me the article would constitute greatness and extreme minion love on your part. Thank you!

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  8. Jim, I think a norinco-chicom sks rifle would be the way to go for your intended direction. Although they are inflated priced only due to no longer imported. They are not too rare to be valued as such. Price point and condition of course must be considered. 20 inch barrel,can be scoped with only a little accessorization,10 round fixed box magazine, (can be upgraded to accept 30 rounder magazines if desired/I wouldn't-just leave it stock) runs on cheap steel cased ammo, durable design, 100 pound rice paddy peasants can operate them. Just consider it a middling gun in your battery between 22 and 30 caliber guns. Time is of the essence nowadays and a "created" project that burns time or money for un proven/non standard results, Might not be a best overall course. I try to consider a gun/caliber/engineered design as a specific tool for mostly a narrow job description, not expecting it to be a do all proposition.

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    1. The Chink SKS's are complete feces, even at $100. At $300-$400 they are like the Mosin Nagant in total worthlessness. I couldn't get mine on paper, the thirty round clip wouldn't load from strippers, the scope mount was a nightmare as was the stock replacement. I have nothing good to say about the bastards. They are the poisoned baby formula of the gun world.

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    2. A bad tradesman always blames his tool

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    3. Really? You are going to defend Chinese craftsmanship? Next, are you going to defend the practice of marrying first cousins?

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    4. I picked up a case of Chink SKSs back when they first came on the market, something a bit less than $100 a piece. Excellent value, utterly reliable. Some were better than others; sold the worst.

      There are two tricks to enjoying your SKS: first, don't change anything. Keep it an iron-sighted, ten-round weapon. Second, avoid Chink ammo. Most accuracy problems are ammo related. The Chinese knew what they wanted, and got it. After all, 'accuracy' is a very relative word.

      If you want something else; get something else. Don't expect the Chink SKS to anything other than what it was intended to be. The trigger is a bitch, but weakening springs just creates new problems.

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    5. “Next, are you going to defend the practice of marrying first cousins?”


      Are we talking about a really hot 1st cousin? Say one that looks like Lucy Hale or Jennifer Lawrence? Because I gotta say, I’m not totally opposed to the idea :D

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    6. You bring up a valid point. :)

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    7. 7:11-it was awful cheap ammo, and yes, every time I modified it, it got worse and worse.

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    8. I had good results with my Yugo SKS after degreasing and re-lubing it. I used only boxer-brass US-made ammo. Sold it for a couple hunnert more than bought for, to a buddy of small stature.

      Marrying cousins is okay for the enemy. It keeps them stupid and plagued with birth defects. Rapid and complete deportation is the only solution to Islam.

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    9. I hear Saudi Arabia has a lot of empty desert, and we are on good terms with them, for deportation. We're on our way over to Iraq and Afghanistan anyway, right?

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  9. Sigh...........

    Here we go again.

    You are wasting time!

    If the 303 is too much for you Grampa then face reality and get something with less recoil.

    When, yes WHEN does being efficient come into your survival planning?

    Or how about some reality?

    How much time and money and effort will be wasted in this "My pretty little pony" idea?

    You would be better off, AND it would be more survival conducive, if you just got a part time job and bought a lesser caliber or more 303 ammo.

    Or hey! How about a recoil pad? Or just bring that ole beater to the smith and get it ported.

    Ever see Open Range with Costner?

    The shoot out at the end?

    You AINT going to be having time nor discipline to be FUC*** around and playing with your bullets, let alone remember which ones are which and where they shoot. If you even ever shoot any of them, that is.

    Just so as to not hurt your feelings too much...some of your recent posts have been pretty decent.

    YKW
    MM

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    1. Please re-read the first paragraph on why I wrote the article. I have both a butt pad and a shoulder pad. Please conduct this thought exercise: Would anything get invented if the attitude was "How much time and money and effort will be wasted in this My pretty little pony idea?"

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    2. You must be upset, James. I can't figure out what you mean.

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    3. 1. I wrote the article because I couldn't get the idea out of my head. I don't claim in to be much more than a thought exercise.
      2. I have done something for recoil-I have recoil pads.
      3. Sometimes the journey is more important than the destination. Learning skills you end up not using for employment, reading about a subject that never comes up again, discussing lofty topics to no purpose. Those are examples of supposed wasteful of time ideas that serve their own purpose. Better?

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  10. You do make a very good point there at the end, but at the same time it's worth considering if this exercise is worth investing in. That's the hard part. Believe me, I know. I got all kinds of started projects that never completed. Thing is for me, and maybe everyone else too, is that I get all gung-ho at the initial idea and then that "to a hammer everything looks like a nail" thing comes on board and next thing ya know all common sense is thrown out the window as I charge headlong into my future failed destiny. LOL I never learn....

    Seriously, if the recoil is a problem you should consider researching other ways to deal with it rather than altering bullet composition. Just guessing, but that area, altered bullets, seems like something people with lots of experience would dabble in, not someone that is just getting into it. Recipe for disaster. There is no shame in the .22, especially the semi-autos cause the recoil is so much lighter than the bolts or single shots. The .22 guns are less expensive, so it the ammo, they are lighter and in my opinion better all the way around than the larger calibers. Yeah, a 303 or 308 can a moose down at 1000 yds but so will a .22 if you let em get closer and pull the trigger more times. But none of this is valid if you don't get out there NOW and start firing, and lots of it. Lot's of firing is where the value in the .22 shines. Get a Marlin model 60 and a couple Spee-D loaders and 20k ammo and you'll be set.

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    1. I just wrote an article on the rimfire, as well as commenting on Liberty And Lead2 blog about it. And I'm sure I'll have to downgrade in power one way or another if I live long enough.

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  11. As far as I am concerned the current concern in prepper circles about ammo reloading etc. is overblown. The chances that one will live past using @10000 rounds of ammo for their primary weapons are slim to none, and buying @10k rounds of ammo pencils out about the same as buying all the extra reloading equipment and components to reload and equivalent amount of ammo once you apply any reasonable value to your time. Our grandkids might need to reload ammo, but currently reading preppers probably wont. Of course I also dont shoot much for fun either. Shooting for me is to keep the basic skills functioning, and to deal with predators or other essential needs. I don't go through more than 200 bullets a year at absolute most. And in a more frequent combat and hunting for meat situation, I don't foresee using much more than that (if you are involved in combat to the extent you use more than 200 bullets a year for those combats, then you are going to die in a year or two at most anyways). 200 rounds - hunting, self defense, or keeping skills. 10k factory rounds. = 50 years. Longer than I have left that is for sure. Double up to 20k factory rounds and you left a reasonable inheritance for the kids. 10000 rounds should cost @ $3-7k Yes that is a lot in single go, but you can get it a in shipments of couple thousand at a time. So a couple hundred for a reloading kit SOUNDS better - but you still have to buy brass, primer, powder, etc, then you have to find or buy the lead, and _then_ spend the TIME (your time) to actually fill and make the rounds, safely, and that very time could be better spent growing a garden, hunting, target shooting, etc, etc. If you enjoy the tedious precision of building a ship in a bottle with the dangers of working with small amounts of explosives (primers and powders)and toxins (lead), then it might be a fine *hobby*- but it is unlikely to end up being financially much smarter than just buying the safe mass produced industrial produced ammo (until those industrial productions become to expensive). And you are still reliant on industrial produced primers, powder, etc...
    If you are really worried about your weapons ammo, you ought to be thinking about bows, crossbows, prods, spring guns, etc, where in the end the propellant is stored muscle power, not petroleum derived or delivered (so no potato guns either, or surgical tubing slingshots!). Factory ammo for me and mine, then the bows and slings come into play.

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    1. If you have nothing BUT time, and you consider your 200 rounds a year as normal ( I mostly agree with that whole line of reasoning ), if you can use the Lee loader, at most you are out about $80-$100 ( a back up unit for two total plus the bullet mold ). My formula, since 303 is a terrible case to reload from the abuse, is one quarter factory loads for the brass and the rest components. You are down to one third price for 3/4 of your ammo ( assuming salvage lead ). $100 for a reloading machine for 4k rounds is negligible. Granted, I prefer factory. And had I been smarter and not as poor, I would have bought more war surplus ( for optimal performance for the round ) and never bothered with reloads. For me, reloading is a frugal necessity, not a preference. Assuming me or mine survive, it is battle rifles, then rimfire, then archery. Hopefully, several generations to archery.

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    2. Excellent commentary JJ, I can see you spent some time thinking this through, and I agree mostly. I have my 10k rds but I spend a lot of ammo so I constantly buy more. The day after tomorrow for example I'm going to the range and taking 3 guns with me, and at least 500 rds. Not saying I'll use all 500 but I may and will at leats use 300.

      This is a very nice professional range and in decent weather I'll go there at least once a month and shoot 300 or more rds each time. So yeah, I keep buying, and rotating it out.

      Tomorrow I'm going to Rural King again and I'll buy (5) 100 rd boxes of 9mm to fill in for the ones I'll be shooting on Thur.

      If you're a shooter you can't have too much ammo but if you don't shoot at all then 1 box is probably enough. If you don't shoot now you probably won't in the future.

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    3. Just remembered, I'm also gonna buy some bolts for the crossbow at Rural King tomorrow. Kind of expensive so I'll probably get about 20 or so and maybe some broadheads.

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    4. Does the twenty bolts mean that is all you can afford, or that you get a bulk discount? Surely there is a mail order source that has something more affordable? Or is it a "buy a little every time" discipline kind of thing? Just curious how the rich and famous live :)

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    5. I’m the minion that wrote the guest article on cheap reloads with the Lee Loader. I think that JJ Grey is on to something, as I’ve often thought that it’s probably just as well that you put your funds into more ammo, as opposed to reloading components. That said, if you are willing to overlook the extra time associated with reloading, I do feel that reloading can be done at a fraction of the cost of purchasing ammo if gone about the right way. As I pointed out in my article, the key of course is cast bullets, and to get the lead and salvaged brass for either free (ideally) or at a greatly reduced cost.

      @ghostsniper. I use carbon fiber bolts for my Excalibur crossbow (A very nice and accurate crossbow, but heavy). In my experience, carbon fiber is the best bang for your buck. Any time that I was unfortunate enough to miss my target when shooting aluminum bolts, resulted in a bent bolt, that you could never get straight again. Carbon fiber can be damaged, and a damaged carbon fiber bolt/arrow can shatter. But so far I’ve never had it happen. It’s just a much more forgiving material, and you’ll be money ahead. I haven’t shot it in a while, but I love my Excalibur crossbow, and wouldn’t have any worries what so ever about putting game on the table, if it were to come down to that. I can put a bolt in a 3” circle consistently with it at 20 yards; in some cases one bolt striking the other.

      Elko Minion

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    6. I think we are getting a little lazy now as ammo prices come down and it is available everywhere. A few short years ago reloading made perfect sense. Factory of DIY's both have pros and cons. I don't think there is any one right answer.

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    7. Cheap available ammo: buy loaded ammo, sealed neck/primer if you can. This situation coincides with inexpensive available reloading components, so get these too. This shall pass, as all good thing do.
      When it's dry out there, pick up your brass and aim carefully. Reload or know someone trustworthy who does.
      Right now, it doesn't pay to reload common types or do other than stock deep. So, stock deep and put everything in new ammo cans stacked in a cool-dry place above the waterline. Every new .22 rifle needs a 5K case of ammo in a sealed metal can and a 4x 'scope to go with it, as WRM. Practice ammo is from 1997.

      pdxr13

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    8. I'm just waiting for ammo prices to shoot back up. It's like gasoline. Prices stay low for years, suddenly jack up, and everyone panics and no one saw it coming.

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  12. Yeah, buy a little every time. I ain't wealthy, far from it. I just try to spend my limited funds as wisely as possible. No I'm not an expert, but hopefully I'm better at it today than I was tomorrow.

    Isn't wealth a matter of viewpoint?
    I've never heard anyone claim to be wealthy but I've heard plenty of people refer to people they presumed was wealthy.
    If they're not on the Forbe's 400 wealthiest then I have no idea if anyone is wealthy or not.

    Easy debt, you see.
    Makes a lot of folks appear more wealthy that they are - because of their possessions and how they live. All them folks jammed into the eateries at noon any day of the week, they are putting on airs. They ain't wealthy but they want to appear to be wealthy, cause they've been programmed. But the mailman knows otherwise cause he sees all the bills coming in. So when the mailman passes by Appleby's at lunch time you'll hear him let out a hardy laugh, cause he knows the truth. LOL

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    1. When I was making $10k a year, and less than half went to bills, I considered myself wealthy. My folks, bringing in $60-80k a year? Broke and poor. It is all about debt and expenses, not income.

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    2. Every paycheck putting away enough cash to live for 90days frugally. Work one and slack five, or pile up the surplus for a rainy day.

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  13. https://www.gunpartscorp.com/category/shooting-acc/caliber-conversions

    fyi
    hope this helps!

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