When there is talk of rimfire weapons for the apocalypse, inevitably it is of allowing women and children to rapid fire dump fifty round mags at invaders. This is of course retarded, as no cartridge is cheap enough to rapid semi fire indefinitely, nor are anyone’s stockpiles deep enough, nor is it wise for the shooters. Tactics are for cannon fodder, strategy is for armchair General’s never in battle, and logistics are for the gene pool evolutionary winners. I don’t think I can make it any plainer than that.
Semi-auto is a logistics dead end. We’ve talked previously of short term semi’s for the die-off, manual action firearms for the long term post-apocalypse and rimfire for a Forever Gun. Semi can have a place, in a niche roll. After that, it is suicide-99% of survivalists are incapable of fire discipline in the heat of battle where brain chemicals decide your action. You can delude yourself all you want, but I’m not buying what you are selling. Almost nobody can defeat brain chemistry, whether it be sexual desire, hormone dictated physiological functions or performance under adrenaline.
Just as I always get arguments against finite resource depletion, against the predominance of food in human behavior and towards the innate goodness of human beings towards their fellow man, I also always count on some argument trying to convince me that only semi-auto’s are superior. But I wasn’t arguing that they are not a superior Oil Age Industrial Age weapon, I am arguing that they suck pus bloated monkey testicles for AFTER the apocalypse. So when the argument states that rimfires are great post-apoc weapons because the rounds are cheap, and then inevitably the approved rifle is a Rugar 10/22 semi-auto, we circle back around to logistics and the end of our Industrial Age.
If you stock the rimfire because it is cheap, and then practice a lot with it because it is cheap, and are capable of better marksmanship because of its lack of recoil, all those advantages evaporate when you switch from bolt action to semi-automatic. Is it the cat’s meow when you can hit three enemy combatants in the face at two hundred yards in a second and a half? Sure. But is it any less terrifying to the enemy when a guerrilla only kills one of your own, verses three? I would submit that lack of multiply hits is not a handicap in a ambush situation. Especially since, to gain that capacity, you sacrifice sound logistics.
Let’s keep this simple. On a budget, you can easily get a rimfire bolt action sniper-like rifle under $250 ( Savage Arms Mk II FV ). And on a budget, you can stock several thousand rounds for another $150. If you go to semi, the comparably accurate rifle costs more and you need to stock a LOT more ammunition ( plus magazines ), both for training and for operations. In a decade long civil war, I’d rather have a one shot, one ( eventual ) kill than have to worry that my ammunition is going to hold up under spray and pray conditions.
Yes, I can already hear you now. Better to have semi in case you need it, fire discipline, and practice. If you need multiple shots to defend yourself with a rimfire, chances are good you are overrun already. This is an ambush gun. If you are equipping kids and women with rimfire, they need to be OUT of a fixed position. Better they shoot ( one round ) and scoot and disappear into the trees and rendezvous elsewhere. Their chances are better of surviving. We’ve already talked of fire discipline. If you can achieve it, even through an inordinate amount of practice, great. For the majority of us, not going to happen, if for no other reason than training. Make your gun discipline you ( if you want most of a book making a case against semi‘s, see my Apocalypse Gun Porn in BBBno.2 ).
If you are NOT on a budget, most of what I’m saying here is not applicable. I would suggest both Commander Zero and Liberty And Lead2 blogspot. CZ for his 40k rimfire deep larder and L&L for the rifle project. L&L is, incidentally, a large part of the inspiration for this article. I was commenting about his plans for a three hundred yard rimfire, questioning the energy dump at that range, and he advised using a 22 short or cap in shooting gelatin ( or similar medium ) as the cap has the same energy at the muzzle as a 22LR has at 300 yards ( although that might be an expensive type of 22LR. The comment is at the April 20 or so Kidd Rock article at his site ).
L&L is a pretty good egg. If you want less doom and gloom, less hate and less nice hair, he is your guy. He doesn’t always post on your schedule, but he is a hobbyist of the best sort ( as is Commander Zero, which is why he is about the only Yuppie Scum Survivalist I respect ). Just beware the two sites are, in certain aspects, for those preppers in better financial straights. CZ will practice frugal everyday eating grocery shopping, and L&L preaches rice and beans in two liter bottles, but both like their high dollar firearms. Not to say that is wrong. You save money on X to buy better guns. I’m just saying your average Joe doesn’t even always have that option.
When I wrote the Forever Gun book ( available in BBBno.9 ), rimfire was stupid expensive and barely available, and I focused on reloading 9mm for a cheaper option ( giving you five cent rounds if you had lead ). But my original Forever Gun was a rimfire. In 2006 or 2007 ( or close enough ), I bought a Wal-Mart rimfire semi tube fed, for $100. Ten thousand rounds of rimfire was another $175, for a total of $300 after tax for a Forever Gun ( while everyone else has devolved into black powder or archery, you retain the superior smokeless powder weapon, and at that point its low energy round is no longer inferior ).
Now, for a short open window of low demand due to high unemployment, you can once again cheaply stockpile a Forever Gun Arsenal. And make no mistake. Go look at the price of gasoline. We are on the upswing in energy prices ( not to say we won’t drop back down. What concerns me is that if it goes up high enough, we get a 2009 repeat of bankruptcy and unemployment and we see shortages and surging prices as lots of companies bankrupt and commodities surge. NOT good for ammunition or gun prices-but especially not for ammo ). It could be nothing or it could be Good Night Stock Market Irene.
I’m working my way towards merging your Forever Gun Arsenal with a immediate need rimfire sniper. Return tomorrow for that.
END ( today's related link https://amzn.to/2qWIBf4 )
* By the by, all my writing is copyrighted. For the obtuse out there
In some ways, I'm almost thankful for my health problems.ReplyDelete
When the world falls apart, I'll be dead in less then 3 years.
So for me every firearm is a forever gun.
But back to the subject.
I have heard everyone rave about the Savage but they all curse the crude mag that it has. A mag that is way too expensive and hard to get. Like all Savage mags.
The Ruger American Bolt action Rifle with the bull barrel is about $300 and takes the 10/22 mags that are everywhere.
I hadn't heard that about the Savage-but then, having bought so few non-war surplus guns over the years I don't know much on brand names. Thankfully, for me, I don't care if I need to use mine as a single shot.Delete
We have no kids here so that idea is moot, and if my inexperienced wife was ever to possess a firearm in my absence it would be a 12ga pump but she'd need to get some experience first. I will NOT have people around me that are inexperienced with firearms possessing them. Frankly, it's suicidal, once removed.ReplyDelete
You believe there is no such thing as having too much food, and I agree, but I also believe there is no such thing as having too much firepower. Food, water, firepower, shelter. The ultimate quadfectra. There really is no excuse to not have these things right now.
Most line soldiers are well aware of the advantage of the injured enemy as opposed to the killed enemy. When you kill an enemy you now have one less person attempting to kill you, but when you severely injure an enemy at least one other enemy must take care of him. So now you have 2 less enemy trying to kill you.
With not much experience, but lots of attitude and dedication anyone can hit man size targets at 300 yds with a decent rimfire rifle. If you can't, then you probably should limit yourself to maybe a shotgun for close quarters stuff.
If you heard someone arguing that having too much food and water is bad because in their apocalypse boredom they will just sit around and eat and get obese you would think it ridiculous wouldn't you?
The same with semi-auto rimfire.
We have no idea of what the future holds so there is no way anyone can say how much ammo is too much. neither do we have any idea how profound the future may be so there is no way anyone can say that if you need to send thousands of rds downrange instantly you haven't done your homework properly.
I will never be killed or injured because I don't have enough ammo and anyone that does deserves it.
My Marlin model 60 holds 17 long rifle bullets in a tube feed and with a Simmons 4x scope costs under $300 everywhere.
The Spee-D-Loader holds 120 rds in 8 tubes and costs just $23.76 https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/spee-d-loader-120-round-speed-loader-works-with-all-tube-fed-rifles-and-22-ammo-722466108150.do
For anyone, especially people starting from scratch, that's the best advice I can give and it is based on 5 decades of experience firing hundreds of thousands of rounds through 50+ different firearms under just about any condition imaginable.
Again, that is just a starting point.
I can't really argue with anything above. And you have trained for semi, so good on you. The average frugal prepper just better be able to hide and avoid a lot of combat. That is the alternative to the semi spray and pray. Again, with the resources, semi's can work for you if done properly. If you don't have the resources, you don't fight the enemies war. I would hazard to guess that 99% of the Muzzie insurgent casualties were from heavy weapons rather than carbine fire. If you aren't facing those weapons here ( yes, if, who knows how civil unrest unfolds. It could be worse than just post-apoc light infantry battles ), your survival rate from ambush and hiding are pretty good.Delete
"If you don't have the resources, you don't fight the enemies war."Delete
I didn't touch on that aspect but you are absolutely right. I don't plan to engage anyone ever, but I am prepared to always. Unless you turn half your brain off there is no way you can walk this earth today and not be well aware of the danger every where.
When the SHTF I plan to be invisible as much as possible. I'm too old now to go running through the woods like an insane maniac like days of yore so I will sit back and engage them from afar, but I will do my best to stay out of their way entirely. The goal of life is to stay alive as long as possible.
I think we agree that you need to have far more resources than needed, just in case you survive. Your plan is much more solid, insofar as you will engage from a safe distance. I understand this is a weakness in my plans, but mostly I am not profoundly worried since this is a place people try to leave rather than go to. I feel comfortable with both my food and defense plans, as they both should outlast me.Delete
Significant wisdom in this statement - "this is a place people try to leave rather than go to"Delete
Wisdom? Or wishful thinking? :)Delete
Minions should also consider the utility of the 22 in a hunting varmits-food procurement role. When shopping-selecting consider a threaded bull barrel model. This will provide a capability to suppress it down the road as an option. Animal protein will be in high demand during our coming collapse. Pigeons and stray-unsecured domestic pets will be simmering in my stew pot.ReplyDelete
Just remember however that the rural South was pretty much depleted of game during the Great Depression, and the population was much lower than today. Think traps and snares, primarily. Man is a much more dangerous animal than squirrels and you really should save your ammo for them.Delete
There are devices out there that adapt an oil filter to the unthreaded barrel with set screws. I've also heard of a guy that stuffed cotton balls in a 20 oz plastic soda bottle and zip tied it to the barrel. I haven't tried either.Delete
Sounds too Mafia assassin-ish. I would imagine the silencer blocks a scope, so it is close quarters only. Or just a fun toy.Delete
Today I will be playing the part of the grumpy guy and say something that is not told often : shooting is a sport, survivalism is not a sport.ReplyDelete
I can completely understand that a shooter considers his weapon collection / "arsenal" as being of use when SHTF. It will certainly be, within reason. But the purchases were not meant with SHTF as a primary concern. Even the tacticool stuff, although it is believed to be for that kind of "situations", is a sports guns, bought out of desire.
It is, however, another thing to build up an arsenal with a collapse in mind. The approach is different.
The SHTF firearm is something you need to shoot at desperate or evil people that are interested in you because you're the last one who hasn't been looted yet, and there are no other options around. If you do your homework, it will logically come down to that.
I can see a .22LR single-shot rifle as an inexpensive way to teach people in your group about shooting. Yes, I know about the "israeli COIN sniper" stuff and the squirrel stuff and the poacher headshot stuff (and the zombie survival stuff). If you want more 22LR rifles, it's your life, you'll do what you want anyway.
I think that beyond an inexpensive 22LR (a step which honestly can be skipped entirely) the focus - and the money ! - should go to other type of firearms.
Perhaps I'll use another example to make my point, in case people get offended by the gun angle. (Guns are always emotional stuff)
People sometimes buy SUVs or rugged 4WD in the belief that it will help go somewhere the others can't when SHTF. If the gas pumps don't all dry up in an instant (just remember the situation in Houston and in Miami last year with the hurricanes), well OK, why not, it *might* turn out to be true. But that's not the reason the guy purchased that exact model at that high price.
With our meagre means, the stuff we buy has to serve a number of criteria, and I can understand that it's sound policy to have an object serve many functions. What I'm saying is that SHTF is almost never the primary reason behind the purchase of such a multi-purpose object.
A 22LR rifle really is too specialized. For about the price of a single-shot .22LR I can get a single-shot .243 instead ( CVA Hunter Compact at Cabelas for 230 USD). The ammo doesn't cost the same, true, but the energy delivered is equivalent to an intermediate cartridge, and that should stop the bad guy much better than the .22LR round. I can't do headshots on people running, so I choose center mass, and I could get lucky - or not. A .243 would change the odds in my favor.
Not that I advocate the .243 cartridge as an optimum... I would recommend a .357 rifle and .38 cartridges, or a .30-30 rifle - for logistical reasons (reloading with cast bullets or manufactured lead bullets, much cheaper than jacketed ones).
In this case, the rimfire is serving two purposes. Ambush now, Forever Gun later. It is NOT meant for defense, except as the Forever Gun. If you only have a centerfire, which is of course needed with defense, then you are limited offensively. Since you can train better on a rimfire, you can hit better, and a lower power round hitting is better than a higher one not. I might be getting ahead of myself from part 2.Delete
For a novice, a female, a small person, or feeble, you can't get much better than the tube feed semi 22. The recoil is insignificant. Longer shooting times between loading (15 rds). Very accurate out to 100yds or better. Lower sound volume means less flinching. The Marlin 60 is a very compact and light rifle. Even with the scope on it I would have no problem carrying it with 1 hand all day long. Just guessing it is in the 5lb range, unloaded.Delete
If you are standing and support the model 60 against the side of a tree and pay attention to your breathing you can easily put all 15 bullets into a 1" spot on another tree 100 feet away. I'm pretty certain that just about anybody that can stand for 30 minutes could learn to do this, and quickly.
The spee-d-loaders reside in a nylon pouch that hangs from the left side belt. The magazine tube is pulled from the gun and stood *upside* down against the tree. The funnel on the loader is twisted to a full tube and inverted over the opening of the magazine tube which is held on a **slight angle** from vertical. All 15 bullets slide quickly from the loader into the gun magazine. The loader is turned right side up and placed back in the pouch. The magazine rod is placed back in the magazine and shooting commences. Do it a few times and it's easy. With 2 spee d loaders I have 240 rds ready to go, no fumbling around. Right now I have a length of velcro-strap that holds the pouch against my thigh but when I can get around to it I'll stitch the strap to the pouch permanently. Before, I didn't particularly like the model 60 because of how long and awkward it is to load. Now, that issue is gone.
Something else I just thought of. A big diff I note between the Marlin model 60 and the Ruger 10/20 is the width of the fore end. The Ruger is much wider, more like that of a large caliber center fire. The 60 is very narrow and people with smaller hands will appreciate it. Other than my little Beretta Bobcat .22 pistol my model 60 is my least capable gun. My most powerful is the Winchester model 71 lever action in .348 (1957 vintage - my Pappy's Pennsylvania deer rifle) that is a veritable cannon but at $5+ per trigger pull it mostly stays in it's case.
*upside down so dirt doesn't get on the business end.
**I don't like the idea of bullets slamming into one another in a vertical position, so I angle it maybe 30 degrees to one side - then the bullets slide into the mag tube rather than freefall.
In Alabama the.243 is the smallest legal round to deer hunt with .223 is a no-no .Delete
Ghostsniper, what you say is true when the person is well trained and knows what he's doing.Delete
In my view most people in your party in a SHTF situation are not trained, and worse, the more dangerous to themselves and the people around them are those who think they know what they're doing but don't (panicked senior shooting himself in the foot, smug child who doesn't have trigger discipline etc.)
I know they're supposed to train but in reality many people don't, at least not with the frequency and mindset necessary to use that training in a fighting situation (I insist on the "thinks he knows what is doing" aspect because I see it so often at the range, including former policemen etc.).
This is why I advocate the most idiot-proof solutions instead, something I called "No-Skill Approach" : http://bisonprepper.blogspot.fr/2017/03/guest-article-2-of-2-articles-today.html
And remember, you are going to have to RE-train. How to wipe your ass without wasting paper, how to wash your hands afterwards. How light destroys your night vision. How not to waste ammo. Think the dumbest recruit in the military, from the ghetto, times ten. They aren't just NOT trained, they are trained wrong. On everything. Re-read the article, them assume Ave is really optimistic and gives too much credit to your family :)Delete
"How light destroys your night vision."Delete
Standing in 2' of German snow, 20 degrees below, perimeter guard on field duty, sparse forest, 2am. Been standing there for an hour and my eyes were acclimated. Something moved in front of me maybe 75' away. I looked right at it and saw nothing. Turned my head a little to the left, maybe 15 degrees, and there it was, bigger'n Stuttgart. A wild boar, rootin' in the snow. Looked right at it and it disappeared, turned my head and there it was again. What was this phenom? Seems to be a retina thing. Rods and cones. Night time cause a sort of blind spot right in the center. Turning the head slightly is peripheral vision but the view is much clearer. Try it an see.
.243 is based on .308Win. It is an AMAZING cartridge, especially for peep-sighted shooters who are not going to do precision distance click-adjustment to sights ("flat-shooting" due to high velocity). .243 could have been the perfect intermediate-size medium-range cartridge allowing a short action that the .308Win almost was.Delete
.223 is about 5x as much weight and volume as .22LR, with a bullet 50% heavier going 2+x faster, and is a marginal performer at 400M. Marginal means that it may not penetrate concealment with enough energy to disable the enemy hiding behind it. .223 M855 IS good enough to always defeat soft armor, vehicle skin/glass, wood-frame building with enough energy to critically-wound enemy behind it under 150M, as long as the barrel is ~20". .22LR is stopped by almost everything common, except civilian vehicle sheetmetal.
It almost seems a 20" barrel is hard to find, at least reasonably. But it sounds like it should be standard.Delete
Yes, 20" barrel is what was specified by Stoner. Longer than this gains little, shorter sheds velocity too fast. Velocity is critical in a light bullet cartridge to tumble on entry to the target, making an effective hit.Delete
I found a discounted new 20' heavy barrel to build an AR-15 with. A buddy had an extra built lower, and found the rest of the parts variously "on-sale" so that he could put it together for less than $500. It's a clone of an M16A2 with HB, and is a tack-driver with minimal recoil and plenty of metal to secure a bayonet.
one-in-nine twist is just about perfect for the M855 62 grain steel-core (not exactly "AP" like the .30-'06 M2 AP, but better at going through auto glass at range than the 55 grain, ymmv), and okay for 77 grain or 55 grain. M855 is recently found as low as $0.27 to $0.33 each. Stock deep.
Agree that far away is more ideal than spitting distance for shooting people who are or will be shooting you. Running and hiding is a plan. The other plan for dealing with an overmatch is to "hug the belt" denying the opfor the use of their excellent weapons like artillery and CAS aircraft because their assets are Danger Close.
Stock deep now or forever hold your peace. You can hear the roar of the waterfall, yes?Delete
A chart for thought http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rimfire-rifles.htmlReplyDelete
That helps with perspective, thanks.Delete
How about a single shot 12g with the inserts for different calibres?ReplyDelete
Maybe even a double barrel (over & under would be easier to aim) with dual triggers (no ejectors)? Then you could have a shotgun & whatever calibre your insert is in?
Yeah it's not a tack driver with the insert but it's still decent enough (from what I've seen). Then you can get a 38/357 or a 9mm if that's your thing
If you think you'll trade/steal/find different ammo that would be the way to go. $100 for the shotgun and what, $35?, per insert.Delete
That isn't me being cute. See There are more like me. oh my that's scary!!!!!Delete
I'm thinking more along the lines of. 12g and all it's versatility with the different shells. The insert with the calibre you've selected will allow you to carry more ammo than shells & they're fired out of I think it's a 6 or 7 inch insert (more than a pistol)Delete
Gary: it's Great Minds Thinking Alike.Delete
5:40-I was just chastised for wanting to carry both 303 and 7.62x39 powered down 303. Aren't you talking about a lot of different loads just in 12g? I think it's smart, but others might not agree.
@2:48. That’s by no means a bad idea, since it provides you with the versatility to fire a variety of different shells that you may come across. However, accuracy would be terrible. You would probably be better off with an adapter that allows you to fire a variety of different shotshells, and using the biggest shot that you can practically use. I know that the example below is not the same as what you’re referring to here, however the results would be much the same. At a mere 10 or 15 yards, the .45 long colt was key-holing, and according to Mr Smith, the adapter is rifled, albeit rather short.Delete
Soviet Block Flare Pistols as Survival Guns (Hovey Smith)
Just thinking out loud here. But wouldn't the barrel insert would work as an expedient firearm....Delete
Yes, I think expedient is the right concept here. Better than a pipe and some rubber bands.Delete
@ 7:21 Thanks for the video, BTW. Very interesting line of thought.Delete
Kurt Saxon stuff -ReplyDelete
Good to see you're still alive, bro.Delete
Just for fun, the guys on the Rimfire Central forum were talking about 600 yard shots with the iron sights on this rifle. Pretty awkward with the long barrel, but heirloom quality, and quiet.ReplyDelete
I think the military lists 50 foot pounds of energy as the lowest to maintain lethality. In reality, people have succumbed to air rifles in the range of 7-13 fpe.
How do you see at 300, let alone 600 yards? You might notice a blob that is the target, but isn't it covered by your front site?Delete
It's a whole nuther world out there when you go over 300 yds. If your sights are set up properly the very top, the flat part, is what you put on the target and what you center in the rear sight. A person may be a crack shot at 100yds but long range stuff requires more effort. Not much, but some. Thats why you have to get out there and SHOOT!Delete
Was just over at Sportsmans Guide and ran some numbers. The Marlin model 60 has come way down in price. Non-members can get the base model for about $165, plus the $25 transfer fee = $190. Put a $30 4x Barska scope on it, a $10 sling, a couple $25 spee-d-loaders and 5,000 rds of CCI 40 grain bullets for $230. Not including shipping and taxes that all comes up to about $520. What's not to like?
Considering what my bare bones Wal-Mart rifle and ammo cost, factoring in inflation for a Forever Gun, that isn't bad at all. Don't wait-prices will just go up.Delete
Great reloading proceedure with the Marlin Mod. 60 if you're standing, but what about the prone position?
@Anon, you're fucked! LOLReplyDelete
Seriously, is any gun perfect?
An AR with a 30 rd mag sticks in the dirt, how do you crank a lever in the prone, ever do a bolt in the prone without a bipod? Awkward.
You do raise a good point, broader than I think you expected.
Good idea to practice shooting in all positions in all conditions. Night, rain, snow, kneeling, prone, standing, directly into the sun, dominant hand, subordinate hand, etc.
Perhaps a dump pouch on the right side of your belt with loose rounds for dropping them directly into the chamber 1 at a time.
What would be great is if some genius invented a spring wound 100 rd drum that could be installed after the tube mag was uninstalled. Hell, they're .22's, make it a double, when 1 drum is empty just spin it around and have another 100 rds. Whoa.
How about belt-feeding the thing ? :DDelete
Of course, belts will only hold 10 rounds to comply with the law.
Good answer to my question.
Don't own an AR, so can't comment on shooting from prone.
How do you crank a lever from the prone? Easy - turn it sideways.
Shooting a bolt-action from the prone? No problem. Been there, done that..