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Saturday, July 29, 2017

revolvers


REVOLVERS
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note: YKW, MM: got your snail mail donation of exceptional generosity-thanks a million!
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note: another "duh!" idea.  When building a dome with rebar and chicken wire, soak cloth in a cement slurry and lay on top of the structure.  When dry you can then add on more serious thickness of wire and cement.  YouTube vid on tire wall hut.
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I generally don’t care to relive ideas from my old blog five years ago.  Been there, done that and yawn.  I do it of course because I always need something to write about, but I don’t like it.  I just had one subject, survivalists “fighting the last war”, that I pulled out of the JMD blog from 2012, but not only did I already redo that in my “grandpappy” series and similar,  then I run across Commander Zero doing a piece on it the other day.  Granted, CZ has terrible hair, proof in the fact he has no photos out, too embarrassed to be compared to my perfect translucent dome, but I know if I followed through you all would inevitably taunt me for copying ( not that I have any compunction ripping off others ideas, I just have the grace and style to wait a suitable period until I do so ) even if I took a month of twelve hour days to research everything I’d ever written and noted each time I originated the thought, you would STILL have a little devil dude perched on your shoulder whispering in your ear how uninspiring and unoriginal I was, the ingrate minions that you are.  Luckily, today I was able to revert to responding to a readers comment.

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Let’s talk about revolvers.  I mentioned they were simple, and a minion took me to task.  If a revolver gets out of tune it takes a gunsmith to fix it, so auto’s were much simpler ( especially now after a hundred years of perfecting the design, I would imagine.  I actually just read an old Shotgun News-old for me, as it was in a stack waiting- article on a bunch of writers arguing over the best auto’s of WWII, and the 45 was both worshiped and poo-pahed for already being out of date.  I didn’t much care other than to get the gist on the improving simplicity ).  And yes, I knew about primitive gun makers creating auto’s where they really couldn’t revolvers.  I read that on the Vietnam War back in my teens, so this issue has been long known.  And I’m not arguing this here.  I will of course mention, because it bears repeating and I love poking sleeping bears-I used to try to shy away from that as I didn’t need the stress but now I like the thrill and challenge-that if you are a AR lover, you just crapped all over the simplicity argument anyway.  You want simple you stick with the AK, or better yet stick with bolts. 

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But I don’t care about gunsmithing simplicity.  I care about user simplicity.  How long do you really think guns are going to last in the apocalypse?  Probably at most ten thousand rounds, which while problematic in some cheap civilian firearms, accuracy long ago compromised, is rarely going to be problematic mechanically.  And that is rifles.  Pistols will most likely never be fired that often.  Not revolvers anyway.  If you own an auto you might be shooting the crap out of them now, and have thousands of rounds for them post collapse, but auto owners seem to think that they need to be ready to single handedly combat Jihads, protect the innocent by carrying concealed carry, and engage enemy combatants at close range ( wonder why the M4 guys always carry an auto back-up?  All that firing on their carbine at close ranges in the desert and you know the bastard is going to seize up.  But even if it doesn’t, hello, close range.  Didn’t we talk about survivalists NOT being soldiers? ) which by doing so they seemingly are able to emulate both of their boyhood heroes, cops and grunts.  Another childhood fantasy you need to let go of already.

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Auto owners are pray and spray pukes.  They believe their job will last past the economic collapse and they can practice and fire indiscriminately forever.  Prepper Pony Princesses unable to grasp simple equations of logistics and EROI.  Not to mention the laws of physics,  as applies to hauling gear.  Why in the name of sweet Jesus do you think you need a pistol back-up on your carry load?  Anything above twenty pounds above and beyond your boots and clothing almost automatically disqualifies you from Light Infantry.  And let me tell you straight up, if you ain’t light infantry you ain’t surviving all that long.  You need a back-up in combat, that is what a nice long knife is for.  I highly recommend the Kukri, at a very reasonable price of $25, carbon steel blade made in India-NOT China-but even better would be the bayonet.  I understand they are problematic in several ways but they beat the pistol all to hell in eliminating issues such as cost, portability and practicality.  It is hard to find a decent battle rifle with bayonet anymore.  But you can still find a near new Mauser for the same price, or so, as a factory hunting bolt, so you get that bonus bayonet ( it ain’t the much better Enfield, but all the smart and smartly coiffured survivalists already bought those up ).

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Do you ever WANT to use a bayonet in combat?  Probably not.  But who wants to get into a knife fight at ANY time, anyway?  If you are reduced to fighting after the ammo runs out, it is better to have a long ass spear than a knife.  You might be sputtering and spewing about how you’ll just carry a fifteen round 9mm auto and spare mags and kill any “spear chuckers”, but I’ve seen your load, guys.  Festooned with AR mags and those for the pistol, FLIR scopes and helmets and armor plate body armor, you are NOT light infantry.  You are mechanized infantry.  And you might do great in that role but as soon as your “mechanized” part is compromised you are suddenly Fighting The Last War ( to coyly refer back to where we started ) and true light infantry will kick your ass.  Hell, it already has.  When a nation that finances its wars with inflation runs out of quality troops ( because it takes too much to train them ), and quality mechanized tools and quality fuel to run them, irregular forces defeat you before you even start.  In a one on one pistol to bayonet fight, the pistol is obviously going to win.  In the long run, those pistol equipped troops will not prevail.  Bayonets will return to good effect.  They didn’t do jack against full mechanization, but they will be more effective once the fuel runs out.

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A pistol was only ever supposed to be about fighting your way back to your rifle, prepper wise.   If you are looking at it in a LEO or nation state soldier viewpoint, you are not looking at its role properly.  An auto has evolved into a spray and pray weapon, with all the attending sociological issues that entails.  We talked about that recently, with the over educated over paid understaffed LEO’s which are out today.  Why do you think the 45 was the way it first appeared ( I speak of course of the 1911A1, not its predecessors )?  It was a better “revolver“.  It was a replacement for an underpowered round and it was only ever intended for those personnel not carrying a real gun, ie a rifle.  Only seven or eight rounds?  That was an improvement over the revolver.  Spray and pray would come later, but this was a time of scarce ammunition.  It might have been on occasion delivered by a Model T Ford but the times were still predominantly mule and train for logistics.  The motor vehicle and petroleum assisted mining and smelting had yet to become widespread.  Ammunition was husbanded, not wasted wantonly.

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So, we come back around, as always, to energy.  You don’t want to hear about not because you’ve learned all you can but because you don’t want to do the hard work of thinking through the end of oil.  Starting with your ammunition wasting guns.  Your handgun doesn’t need to be an ammo waster, if you just use it as a homestead/town visit back-up to your rifle.  And if it doesn’t see a lot of use it will most likely never break, and if it most likely doesn’t have the issue of breaking because it lacks heavy use, you can use a revolver instead of an auto.  The revolver was never meant to be used in a prolonged firefight, not even by law enforcement.  The Miami FBI shoot-out and massacre incident which changed so much in the way of perceptions and equipage ( until then the revolver was standard and accepted by LEO’s, most of who never even discharged their sidearm in their career outside the shooting range ) was more of the apex of the consequences of the newly ramped up and militarized War On Drugs than it was about suddenly discovering a better way of doing things.  The cops in the Sixties, during a time of widespread civil unrest, did just fine with batons, using the revolver as the back-up.  They didn’t need semi-auto in the hundreds of rounds.  Only by inventing our version of the drug cartels did we begin to see street firefighting and paramilitary tactics.

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A revolver does one thing and one thing very well.  It sits there and does nothing.  When it is needed, it is ready to go with zero preparation.  It can outlast all but the best magazines, which might last years before losing spring strength but which are still a potential point of failure, sitting in a bedside drawer ready to use for years on end.  Or sitting in a holster for months between oiling.  For this attribute if nothing else ( there are others, such as ease of firing substandard in power rounds using salvaged components ), they are perfect for novices and survivalists.  Again, this is not the ONLY reason revolvers are superior to auto’s for the survivalist, just the answer to a minions comments.  Just keep in mind that in regards to complexity, a revolver isn’t your only weak link.  Just look at your LED bulb.  It might as well be magic, for all we can do to fix it.  I’ll leave it at that for now.

END ( today's related link http://amzn.to/2urEeMX )
 

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43 comments:

  1. How long will a gun last, 10,000 rds?
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    The question is worded wrong.
    It depends on how many rounds you are going to fire and I'm betting most of the carrion is going to be created in the urban and suburban areas before it gets way out here to ruralville. At least thats what I'm hoping. So for me 10,000 rds should be adequate per gun. I have about 7 so I'm good for awhile, until I have to break out the more barbaric methods. And don't forget about baseball bats and fish billy's. A cracked skall doesn't care if it was cracked by a 7.62 at 1000yds or a fish billy right up close and personal. And then there's all sorts of hasty obstacles and traps to be implemented around the compound and beyond. I was trained as a combat engineer with a specialty in demolitions so the toolbox is rather large. The one thing I can thank this rotten assed gov't for is the learnin' I got in my 4 year imprisonment. I spent the past 40 years regretting my decision to join, figuring everything I learned and did was a waste of time but it may pay off after all. Even though I am old now, maybe I can teach if there is a need. Onward.

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    1. Well, what was worse, four years military or 12 years public school? What taught you more, if only in life lessons?

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    2. I guess it varies from man to man. I quit in the eleventh grade and joined the Marine Corps as soon (actually sooner) as I was legal. I like to say that the only thing of value I learned in public school was how to touch type, which was forced on me as a punishment.

      I learned more at Parris Island than ten and a half years in public school, given that I could read and write before I started school.

      Since I retired with over forty years service and a PhD and now have more money than I have use for, I guess I'm a success, altho I hold that you never know until you are dead whether you did well or not.

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    3. Expecting to use 10,000 rounds of anything is just silly. Sounds military, not what we talk about here.

      Unless you think you can use it for barter.

      Fire discipline, Lad; fire discipline. Learn to hit what you shoot at.

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    4. I enlisted in 1951 and stayed well past twenty. Can honestly say I enjoyed almost all of it. Found opportunities in the service unavailable to civilians: expensive toys, language training, occasional violence, steady pay. What's not to like?

      Maybe part of the problem was you.

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    5. And whatever do you expect to do with 7,000 rounds of anything? Use it for money?

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    6. 221-boot camp is great for spoiled white boys-gives you a taste of life.
      226-myself, I think 5k bolt rifle rounds and 1k revolver rounds is about right. So, 7k is generally about that number.
      233-I have real issues working for flaming idiots, military or civilian. So, I guess you're right, it's me.
      237-see about on round count.

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    7. 2:26, didn't say anything about expecting to use. In fact, I hope to not use any at all. Who can tell? But I shoot a lot so I like to have a lot on hand at all times. Gonna be looing into reloading later this year. FWIW, At the height of the Iraq war I read that the military expended in excess of 7000 rds for each enemy shot and killed. So the Golden Mane's comment about military *spray and pray* is probably true. When I was in most soldiers barely made Marksman and I don't doubt some cheating was going on.

      Zeroing a new scope on a new AR build today and the final tally was 3 shots of 5.56 at 100 yds that fit under my thumb. Spent around 50 rds getting it zero'd in but it was well worth it.
      There's a whole lot more to good shooting than just pulling a trigger. Breathing is the big one.

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    8. You are not stocking it to use, but stocking IF it needs to be used. As are most preps. Not sure about the confusion myself.

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  2. I‘ve owned several revolvers over the years, and never had one go out of time, but admittedly, I’ve never put thousands of rounds through any of them.

    I do know that a common failure of the older revolvers was that the lock mechanism that would lock the cylinder up, would fail over time. But I’ve never seen this happen with a modern revolver.

    A friend of mine had a vintage Colt Model 1911 that had belonged to his father. The slide mechanism had worn over the years, and when he would shoot it, it would generally put the bullets where you aimed it, but every now and then it would send one astray.

    I see that Brownells offers a Teflon/ Moly gun finish, that’s said to be applicable even to high friction areas such as slide rails.

    https://www.amazon.com/Brownells-Teflon-Moly-Firearm-Finish/dp/B00XUDOABY

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    1. Not sure why anyone would want to put thousands of rounds through one. Emergency, back up, how much practice do you need?

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    2. *how much practice do you need?*
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      As much as it takes. I haven't shot anyone yet but I've been practicing for more than 50 years.
      With all that practice I still manage to NOT hit the bullseye quite frequently. heh

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    3. I take LEO old school standards-once a year hitting the black silhouette-and that is on a good year. :)

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  3. The reason why revolvers in .38 SPecial were still issued to helicopter & light aircraft crews in Veitnam was that they could be operated even if you have only one arm left.

    This is IMHO a very important feature, in a future where not only you have much more risk to lose a limb, but in the same time there will be next to no medical care : the loss might be permanent.

    If only for that reason, I'll always choose a revolver over a pistol.

    Personally I always thought pistols were not intuitive to use, whereas revolvers are very easy to understand and to operate. This might just be me, though.

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    1. I didn't know that about the Nam air crews. Interesting, thanks.

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  4. The closer you get the more complex the problem. Yes, revolvers are simpler to shoot: if it goes click, you just pull the trigger again. I recommend revolvers to people who will not train; that is, old ladies and most police officers, among others. Nevertheless, revolvers are more difficult to maintain (repair and clean).

    Failure drills are more difficult on a semi-auto pistol; maintenance is, however, quite simple. Revolvers are best for (dare I say it?) the less well trained.

    I might note that your comments on ammo use with semi-auto also apply to the untrained individual whatever weapon he uses, noting that an untrained shooter will empty his revolver, or whatever weapon, when panicked.

    Now note that the object of small arms fire is the immediate incapacitation of a threat. Pistols and revolvers are poor at that task, so things that need to be shot with a handgun, often need to be shot more than once. Three times usually does it, but it takes a clear mind to decide the fight is over.

    Move up to what you call a carbine; say the AR 15 type, and you are putting at least three times the power on target, compared to a powerful pistol, say in 10mm.

    Trade off; always trade offs. You carry a pistol or revolver because it is convenient, and you work around the lack of killing power. Consider: if you know you are going into an unavoidable fight, would you pick up your pistol, or your rifle?



    Bolt action rifles are simple. Single shot bolt action rifles are more so. Do you recommend single shot or magazine fed? Again, trade offs.

    Mission dictates equipment.

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    1. Old ladies, cops AND survivalists.
      Mission doesn't always dictate equipment. Consider logistics.

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    2. You have an excellent point, made and taken: I'm assuming that the operator has a choice. If you have no choice, I grant that you have no choice.

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    3. Logistics is a very wide field, involving everything from a Request for Proposal to availability, with contracting, quality control, storage, transportation, maintenance and requirements prediction in between those. Should I assume you refer to some aspect of supply?

      You seem to have hit on a hot topic today.

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    4. Not supply of finished product, necessarily. Basic materials and energy for them, to begin at the beginning. After energy contraction, most of what you need on the battlefield will never again be available.

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  5. Ya know, not that long ago when a young man was 12 yo he was started on an apprenticeship that provided for him and his family all the rest of his life. I on the other hand, at 12 yo was only a little more than halfway through my gov't mandated indoctrination commitment and then another 4 years in the army. So this rotten assed gov't robbed me of at least 9 years of my life and caused unbelievable hurdles for the rest of my life. The longer view is that now there are people running loose in their late 20 and early 30's that never broke free of that gov't noose. I've said it many times and will again, the worst thing this rotten assed gov't ever did was to hijack the public education for THAT is at the base of all the other societal ills of this country.

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    1. Kind of hard to argue with the last line. I would ALMOST agree with you, but you also have a chicken and egg problem. School teaches WomsLib, immigration, fag love and so many other issues helping to break apart unity and cohesion, tribalism and xenophobic tendencies, but isn't school just a delivery system? Wasn't the system imposed by the gov to begin with, taken from the Germans, and never really hijacked anyway? Not arguing, just expanding the discussion.

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    2. Public school isn't education, it is training; training to be a good little cog in the wheel. What they do to the kids in the public schools around here is a crime, or should be.

      And yes, it was a German design, as was 'social security,' destroyer of families, making young and old dependent on the Feral Government and not family.

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    3. So, designed as training, changed rather than hijacked by the same folks to now include today's agenda. As originally envisioned, I'd say the German system wasn't completely problematic due to their then homogenous population. Merely expanding tribalism to a more efficient national scale. Never should have been used here, although without 3rd world immigration it did do a fair job of boiling the melting pot.

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  6. As a completely different take on the whole thing (and possibly a side track of a comment), why not consider a sawn-off shotty instead of either? For starters, where I am, handguns are non-existent but every farmer and his dog have a shotgun lying around. I know a shotty is long, but the time honoured tradition of chopping off the barrel to make it a bit more wieldy has its advantages. Aside from illegality, of course.
    However, consider - ammo is easier to reload and can be much more crude, aiming isn't quite as important, you won't wear out the rifling, you can load it up for any game (so long as you're close enough). If you are going to carry something, then a sawn-off is better than many handgun options. Not least in terms of intimidation.
    My take is, of course, coloured by my total lack of experience with handguns, and the non-availability of the same. Give me a bolt gun in 308 any day, and a 22 for everything else.

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    1. Not a bad idea at all. You are already thinking like an insurgent rather than an Industrial Age mechanized infantryman-use the weapon that has available ammo.

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    2. Shotguns must be aimed at all ranges, but especially at short range where it, for some distance, acts much like a rifle. Most folks, not having been trained on tactical shotgun, have a very distorted notion of shot performance.

      Furthermore, shot performance is extremely dependent on the proper match of shotshell and barrel. Various types and brands of shotshell should be deliberately tested in your barrel, performance noted, and adhered to.

      It ain't like in the movies, Charlie.

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    3. ALMOST makes me feel better for getting rid of my shotty after never hitting dingus.

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    4. Not 5:29, but I’m going to assume that you understand the concept of lead and follow through. Some people (mostly newbies) think that a shotgun is a magical gun that will hit anything in the general direction that you point it. What they don’t understand is just how quickly that shot charge spreads, even with a tighter choke.

      The secret to a shotgun is to treat it as if it fires a single bullet. As an example, say that you see a covey of quail. You would take careful aim at one of them, but ideally, you would aim at the one that was as tightly grouped with the others as much as possible. In this scenario (assuming that you do your part) you will likely hit the one that you aim at, but you might get lucky and bring down another one.

      You would need to spend a little time at a trap range Jim. You would learn real quick how a shotgun works under those conditions. You’d probably get the hang of it pretty quickly, at least I did.

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    5. Excellent, thanks for your response - I have no training in the tactical arts, such as the shotgun - the movies make it look so easy! I'm purely a legitimate/legal rifle hunter for meat. I do have a nice little M6 scout in .410/22H I will now do a lot more practice with.
      Cheers,

      Delete
    6. That's okay, most training in tactical arts is getting closer to the enemy and wasting ammunition.

      Delete
  7. Ruger SP101 is in my future. Probably two of them as I'm obliged to have a 22lr as my first handgun and I want one in 38/357

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    1. I really like the 22 revolver. A good forever gun.

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  8. Another revolver advantage - does not throw brass case away from you when firing.

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    1. Good point-of COURSE I forgot about an obvious one like that.

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  9. "But I don’t care about gunsmithing simplicity. I care about user simplicity."

    I agree!

    IMO, revolvers are the best choice for people who aren't "into guns" since the learning curve is much shorter than for an auto. All pistol calibers are low-powered compared to most rifle calibers. But pistols are more likely to be on your person than a rifle or shotgun if things get sporty so it's a trade-off.

    Reminds me of story I heard of a Texas sheriff who was attending a formal social function. A woman approached him and said, "Sheriff, I see that you're wearing your handgun. Are you expecting trouble?" He replied, "No, ma'am. If I was expecting trouble I'd be carrying my shotgun."

    Re: gunsmithing - In 2000 I bought a used Colt Python at a VERY deeply discounted price from a gentleman who was retiring and had to sell off his collection. (I'd been lusting after one ever since I saw my first few episodes of Starsky and Hutch but could never come up with the scratch for such a fine pistol.) When I took it to a gunsmith friend to look it over he said that it was out of time and could be damaged if enough additional rounds were put through it. He said that the "hand" (an internal part) served as the intentional weak link for the action, like a fuse in an electrical circuit, and was designed to wear out first. I asked the smith if he could repair it and he said, no, no way, absolutely not. Turns out Pythons have to be sent back to the factory to have the hand replaced. He said that it was a difficult job, that no new hands were being made for retail sale, any hands being offered for sale were used and already "sprung" (and therefore useless), and that even if you could get a new hand for replacement there were no remaining gunsmiths that had sufficient experience to do the job properly.

    So here's an example of a very high quality revolver exemplifies your point of "easy to use, hard to fix".

    Ah, yes, the revolver - it's the original "point-and-click" interface :-)

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    1. Even if you think you are good with an auto, without sufficient muscle memory in your first high stress situation you can't screw it up with a revolver like you can an auto.

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  10. My idear of defensive hand gun use is to fire a few rounds at my antagonist to distract him while I leg it out of there. If I happen to land a few on him mores the better but probably not that important in the long run. Nothing gets peoples attention like gunfire so by doing this I also alert those around me(hopefully friends) that its game on. Our learned friend in above post mentioned sawn of shot guns, they will be good for this as well, but not quiet as easy to carry as most pistols.

    Another reason why a concealable weapon is needed, in some situation it maybe prudent to apear unarmed. I can see the likelyhood of being shot in the back of the head by some punk with a rusty old 22 just so he can get his hands on flash looking rifle your carrying.

    I'm suprised ruger blackhawk single action revolvers dont have a bigger following in survivalist circles. Those things are built like tanks, and would probably still function if they were run over by one. The only real disadvantage(admitedly a big one) single actions have over double action revolvers is they are slow to reload. In many ways there ruggedness for long term use probably out weighs there slow reloading capability. A tiny bit slower to shoot but that may be a advantage and if the fight hasnt been won in 6 shots your probably in a whole lot of trouble any way.

    Another advantage of revolvers is that they are a bit safer around kids. Most small children dont have the strenght to pull a double action trigger. I know we should all be responsible gun owners and all that but PSHTF I dout many of us will have guns locked up, they will be out ready for use.

    Any way just a few points that sprang into my head
    Rgards Aussie

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    1. Survivalists are like teenage girls, screaming in sexual release as the newest most plastic guns are released, never sparing a thought for the old guns better thought out long ago, as if guns are game apps were newest is bestist, unless of course their idea of newest carbine stops at 1965. I think I digressed there somewhere.

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    2. Ditto on the Ruger revolvers. My late father only owned Ruger single action revolvers for this reason. Personally, I don’t like the looks of the Ruger’s, and prefer the looks of the Colt’s much better, but the Ruger’s are far stronger guns. If you ever happen to come across a good deal on a Ruger Blackhawk
      .357 convertible Jim, you may wish to consider it. With the first cylinder you can fire the .357/38 interchangeably, and with the second cylinder, you can fire the 9mm, so it’s a very versatile gun.

      Off topic, but I think that I’m going to make that slingbow in the video that I posted previously. That, or I’m going to modify my wrist rocket into one. I feel that following the hard collapse that you’re anticipating, that low tech and silent weapons will be of greater value to the typical survivalist (And to be clear, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have a firearm and plenty of ammo as well). If I do it, I’ll mention it in the comments section.

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    3. If you envision using a sidearm a lot, you could do worse than spending the extra for an indestructible revolver than shoots the cheapest ammo.

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  11. The old colts could stil function if some of the parts were broken. Trigger sear or spring broken the hammer can be pulled backand realeased with the thumb and it would fire. Hammer spring broken and a big elastic band could be wrapped around the front of the frame and the back of the hammer or the hammer could be tapped with a piece of wood(though I dout you could hit much) and the gun will go off. Cylinder hand broken and the cylander can be rotated by hand and held in place if need be and the gun will fire.

    Modern ruger blackhawkes, with there transfer bare safty are a little more complicated than the old peice maker but definatly more simple than a double action revolver.

    Aussie

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    1. Good tips on keeping the broken Colts going Old Aussie. My late father never liked the newer Ruger models with the transfer bar, and refused to own one. I don’t know why exactly, but he had some unusual views on some matters. With the older pre-transfer bar mechanism, it was advised that you load 5, and rest the hammer down on the empty chamber, so it was a 5 shooter if you wanted to be safe with it.

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