note: MM, got your VERY generous PayPal. Many thanks!
Do you really need a pistol? My position has always been that you do not. If you were silly enough to NOT have a rifle that took a bayonet ( if you insist on an AR rifle, at least you have the option of a bayonet which goes a ways towards making it less than the worst choice. As always, if you use it as a mid range sniper you work towards the benefits of the gun and alleviate the bad points ) then a pistol is still not the correct choice. A kukri knife will do well in close defense. To my mind, post-apocalypse, you should never be away from your rifle anyway and there is almost no need for a pistol.
You don’t need it as a back up. That is what the bayonet is for. Current doctrine overloads fighters which should be mechanized anyway ( special operations should not be fought as if a backpack substitutes for a Jeep ) and you would do far better to emulate Third World light infantry than our oil rich industrial militaries. Carrying crap because you MIGHT need it or because it COULD save your life instead slows you down to the point of immobility and endangers your life anyway ( obviously, a shedding of armor and communications and et al would also require changes in both tactics and strategy ).
And you shouldn’t need a pistol to fight your way to your rifle. If you have your rifle with you at all times why does a pistol have a place? Granted, there are some scenarios which lean towards pistol use. For instance, in cold climes where you spend a lot of time outdoors you keep the rifle on the porch or similar location so the metal doesn’t sweat from temperature changes. But me? I’d be using my back-up or back-up to the back-up rifle and leave that inside at all times. And no, I don’t think a rifle inside is an issue. At that time, you aren’t worried about burglars or home invaders per se, not in the same context as today’s crime occurrences.
Post-apocalypse, if the barbarian hordes are attacking the house, you want the thirty caliber rounds capable of punching through the wall and reaching into the next room. Or out the wall to the outside where they are massing for a dynamic entry ( although one would hope you were able to bulletproof the outside, more than likely you didn’t have that luxury. If possible, after the end, at least throw up a mud brick exterior against the walls for both fire and firepower protection. The mud and straw sun dried bricks won’t be all that great, but definitely BTN ) or packing far greater knock down power. A pistol is great for today, now, pre-collapse, to keep the family or the sue-happy neighbors safe, but you need a rifle punch later on ( sure, the family is imperiled. Guess what-if the barbarians get in, they are screwed anyway ).
So, do you need a pistol now, pre-collapse? It might be mostly useless post-collapse ( the one good use for a pistol then could be if you are mobile and your rifle is a rimfire. Then, I‘d definitely recommend a heavier caliber revolver worn at all times ), but now? As we already talked about, currently if you use a gun in self-defense, outside the home, most likely you face criminal charges. My best advice is that if you live in a location where you don’t feel safe without concealed carry, move. Today. Tough advice, because relocation now blows huge and hairy mule member.
Relocation used to be all fun and games when you could play Fantasy Survivor. It was a life hobby, with the crates of ammo and garden and livestock and hobby business. But you always had surplus oil backing you up. There was no danger of starvation or death. You could play at the life. Now? Try to relocate and see if you can find another job. Relocate and see if you don’t get laid off while you are trying to cover a mortgage. It is no longer a hobby without negative consequences. If you bet wrong, if you bet against the economy imploding, you lose everything ( before, it was just time and a bit of savings, if that, you lost ).
Yes, I realize in a year or five or whatever, no matter where you are living crime will get much worse. But danger is relative. More danger in a small town is no where as bad as more danger in a place that is dangerous right now. Moving increases your odds of survival now ( you want to be in prison when the collapse comes? Shoot a few Blacks trying to kick in your face now, and in a lot of locations the political motivated DA will hang you up to dry to further her career ), and during the collapse. Relocation blows. Staying blows. Staying armed blows. Pick your poison.
If you pick the right place to move to, I’d feel perfectly content when visiting the savages for grocery shopping if I had a rifle back in the truck, rather than a pistol on my hip. Not to say you shouldn’t have both. Don’t misunderstand me. Living in a small town, in a correct color state, I simply wouldn’t feel the need to carry a pistol. I’d still own one at home, just in case. I haven’t been without one since I got out of the military. But do I NEED it? Not really. In fact I’d probably be better off with a short barrel twelve gauge. Even single shot. Pistols are fine and dandy if you like them, but I also think they are very over rated.
I never felt unprotected in the field in the military without a pistol. Why should I? I had a carbine. When I had to tote both, the pistol was just dead weight, more of which you certainly didn’t need. Looking at the apocalypse, my rifles give me that security blanket feeling, not my sidearms. And I was smart enough to forego all prior investments to escape the big cities and move to a small rural one. Now, I wouldn’t call anyone stupid for staying in place. Those illusive disappearing jobs. I would question your gamble staying in place, but I wouldn’t think to question your intelligence if you stayed. Your odds of avoiding crime are much better than your odds of staying gainfully employed.
Just don’t delude yourself that owning a pistol will solve your problems. That becomes a cop-out and leads to delusional thinking. We have enough of that going around thinking the can is going to get kicked down the road again, thinking the dollar is indispensable, thinking fracking oil will save us and etcetera.
END ( today's related link http://amzn.to/2y3mDt5 )
* By the by, all my writing is copyrighted. For the obtuse out there
Yeah, as I commented before going to the big city without a pistol. Yes I'd rather have one than not. Definitely a rifle is restricted in any vehicle.ReplyDelete
Knives, machete or axes make for a good substitute though.
Substitutions are good enough in plenty of circumstances. As long as they are the exception rather than the rule.Delete
While there were a couple nuggets in here dealing with relocation this post was disappointing. The gun stuff is written from the perspective of someone that has very little experience, intends to not get any more experience and if you don't agree with him you are just plain wrong.ReplyDelete
That whole bayonet thing is wrong. If they're close enough to use a bayonet you are doing your job wrong. I have bayonets but have no intentions of ever carrying them in a self defense posture. My Ka-Bar Becker BK2 is strapped to my left thigh but it is for utility. My Beretta 92FS is on my right thigh because when I am in utility mode (most of the time) my AR is either strapped across my back or standing against the tree over there. I will not be caught off guard. In 2 seconds my Beretta can be deployed and sending bad guys to hell, while I am getting to my AR. I am good with both guns because I realize the seriousness and severity of whats out there ahead and I exercise my muscle memory constantly. Yes, muscle memory is lost if not used. What, you though it came from rainbow unicorns and once achieved you get to go blob on the couch?
Besides, what's wrong with shooting for a hobby if you like it? Yeah, it costs money, what doesn't? In light of what's in our paths ahead there is no excuse for any thinking person to not be sending money on the one proven thing that will save your life and I'm not talking about stabbing fake bad guys with big knives. sheesh
If your closest neighbor is less than 100 feet away you are looking at life through heavily distorted eyes in many ways and this alone is your biggest obstacle to future survival.
Your position is close to the argument that since you need animal protein only freeze dried foods will do. I don't disagree with you per se but I'm trying to alieviate that cost and settle for the next best thing. You say I'm doing something wrong if I need a bayonet, yet wouldn't the same apply if you needed your pistol instead of your rifle which is a few steps away? I'm not arguing with your position of what is the perfect answer. I just claim most of us are dilitants rather than pro's. And if you can make one argument for prepping like a pro in one area, how can you stop there? Then we are back to Yuppie Scum Preppping. You are a western gun fighter, I'm saying the bulk of us are just farmers with a shotgun, just in case. I'm not right no matter what, I'm right for most of us. Of course, I'm not trying to change your mind. Just trying to explain myself.Delete
PS-I respect the hell out of your skills and preps and attitude. I really do. I'm analyzing practicality and realistic positions for the majority. Also, I just finished a 10k word book on relocation philosophy. In case you are missing my droning repetition.Delete
As far as I can tell the pistol replaced edged weapons maybe 200 years ago, and it changed the way lives were destroyed. You no longer had to wait til a person was close enough to kill you, to kill him. With a little practice you can hit a guy 3 times before he hits the ground from 100+ feet away. Or multiples. If, though some severe stroke of bad luck the assailant gets right up in my mug, my Becker is right here. But my situational awareness is primed all the time so I don't really think that's a possibility. But since the future is uncertain I keep the Becker close.Delete
I think the point I am focusing on the most is the building familiarity with weapons. If you don't use them a lot you can't use them good. Familiarity and repetition is how you build muscle memory - there is no other way. That's also how you build confidence, and the natural extension once a goal has been achieved is to reach for a higher level.
This doesn't have to be hugely expensive but it isn't free. You have to like it, and you have to believe the world situation that is fast approaching.
As far as the dehydrated animal protein goes, yes, I believe it is a necessity. I believe the stuff we eat in the future should be close to what we eat now. You are doing good in eating cracked wheat all the time cause that's what you plan to eat in the future. But hear this, if you don't eat as close to what you eat now you will have health problems and I'm sure you know this. I also believe you are intelligent enough to know that when a medical issue arrives is not the time to prepare for it. Think, research, plan, act.
My primary focus has been on learning to live closer to the future. With a lot less. Yes, your primary focus is most likely far more realistic. Yet, this doesn't bother me. I'm not fatalistic or suicidal. I just see a future of incompetants over confident in their abilities, which I don't need to be professional to avoid or keep at bay. I could completely wrong about this, but it is my comfort level.Delete
IMO a pistol is nearly useless and maybe potentially dangerous to the owner if they never train with it.ReplyDelete
A handgun is not as easy to use as tv makes it out to be. If I miss a week training I can see it, especially on the targets. Skill with a handgun is perishable. Good safe, handling come with practice and familiarity with the weapon. It may be cheaper to own and be effective with a rifle than a handgun even with difference in ammo costs as I think it takes much more trigger time with the pistol.
So, I think you're right, a knife or a club may be as effective at close range and much less expensive for a lot of people.
To be effective at novice skill levels, what is the pistol range? Seven yards? Almost any weapon will do.Delete
True enough, but if a kukri can be kept on person all the time, a pistol would be just as easy to do so too. The long arm has a much further range, the shotgun has short range spread. But they will be put aside when mowing the lawn / digging a hole / carrying a load of wood / etc. etc. The handgun goes on when you get out of bed and is put beside yourself when you go to sleep.Delete
Because when violence happens, it often does not give you any warning. It just blindsides you.
And if you have an errand in town but don't want to advertise you are carrying, a handgun is much easier to conceal.
I don't disagree. Having a pistol isn't a bad idea, it just might not be as necessary as everyone makes it out to be. I'm really just trying to get one to rethink priorities.Delete
I don’t know. I think that far enough into the collapse, when the threat has mostly subsided, you’re going to grow awfully tired of lugging a heavy battle rifle around, with it’s awkward bayonet. And how do you prevent from accidentally impaling yourself or one of your comrades (I’ll assume that it’s standard practice to sheath a bayonet if not anticipating any use, but I honestly don’t know).ReplyDelete
A .44 magnum handgun is an easy 100 yard pistol, and isn’t too bad to carry with a shoulder holster. As the one poster pointed out, a handgun isn’t that easy to master, but it doesn’t take too much training to be able to hit a man sized torso area at 100 yards.
Your shotgun suggestion is a decent compromise, providing that you cut the barrel down to 18”, fit it with a lightweight folding composite stock, and add a well padded sling. Then again, the shotgun is a much more versatile weapon than the handgun, so maybe you’re on to something there.
I would submit to you that the threat will never subside. Absent a monopoly on force, your area will always be under contention militarily. When comparing small tribe to nation state warfare, it is something like every ten years for the nation but no more than every two years for tribal. Smaller more decentralized equals more frequent conflict. And yes, the bayonet stays sheathed. Or, as the metal sheath is form fitting you can leave bayonet attached but covered, although I'd be leery of that practice just in case of accidental lose. Think of a bayonet as auto fire. It is there if you need it but far from convenient and a last resort.Delete
“I would submit to you that the threat will never subside. Absent a monopoly on force, your area will always be under contention militarily. When comparing small tribe to nation state warfare, it is something like every ten years for the nation but no more than every two years for tribal.”Delete
Yeah, but under the circumstances that you’re describing, you will probably only go through about 2 or 3 of those cycles before all the ammo is depleted, and you’re back to primitive weaponry once again. I’m by no means an expert in this area, but other than being attached to a rifle for after you run out of ammo in battle, I’d think that a bayonet post-ammo, would be pretty much useless (It’s too heavy and unwieldy to leave attached to a rifle as is. And by itself, you’re just knife fighting, and I don’t have to tell you what a terrible idea that is).
At this point you will need to rely on primitive weapons that put distance between yourself and an adversary: Spears, Atlatls, Boomerangs (hey, it worked for the feral kid in the road warrior, when he whacked Wez’s little butt buddy in the head with one 😀 ). I’d say bows as well, but producing a bow from primitive materials that functions well enough to be effective, is beyond what most people are capable of (Try weaving a bowstring that will hold up, made from sinew or plant fiber. Tonto, you and I are not). Same with slingshots. They’re great, but the rubber tubing is too dependent on petroleum. But if you can effectively stash enough Dacron for bow strings, or tubing for slingshots, then you should definitely do so.
Crossbows. I probably should do an article on basic manufacture. The metal fab is the hardest aspect and the string ( I think it is called something else ) seemed to be less of an issue. Pre-metal, or primitive nomads, handmade bows are necessary. But as soon as you can do metal, a crossbow is so much better. Less energy goes into the weapons that went into the training of a bowman ( unless like the AmerIndian you grew up hunting with it ).Delete
I like the crossbow suggestion, but bear in mind that crossbow manufacturing is a bit more complex than for your standard bow. I’ve seen many videos on youtube though, so maybe someone out there has a real simple way to go about it. I know that The Backyard Bowyer dude made a crossbow using PVC for the prod, and generally, his designs are such that anyone can do them. This wasn’t in any of his books though, it was on his youtube channel. He does show you how to make real simple bows in the book above, but they’re made from boards, not tree staves, as you would have in the wilderness. For raw bow building from staves, you might want to look into The Traditional Bowyer's Bible series of books. I’ve also heard of people making the crossbow prod out of an auto leaf spring before.Delete
I’ve read up on bowstring making from sinew or plant fiber, and it sounds like a real bitch to me. You would want to know the procedure in case you ever needed it, but basically, you would want to have a large spool of Dacron stockpiled away, and pray like hell that you never ran out of it.
I would think crossbows as more of a group endeavor, given the issues ( not least mass manufacture ). A military replacement for firearms, should we see that time. Although getting the infrastructure in place prior is a good idea, a legacy. I would think the PVC bow guy would want to publish a crossbow book. Perhaps he married and settled down.Delete
Yeah, he’s been married for a while now. I haven’t been really keeping up with him lately, so for all I know he may have added the crossbow plans to one of his future publications. But in case he didn’t, I provided the link below. All you need to do if you’re using Firefox is to go into the add-ons manager, add the VideoDownloadHelper, and you can then download the videos. If you click on the 3 brightly colored circles at the top right in you tool bar, it will give the options in file size to download it.Delete
Introducing the 100 Pound PVC Crossbow (He includes the plans here in two separate links)
Appreciate the link. I don't much care for the PVC prod, long term, but it will do nicely for the heavy salvage era.Delete
It’s just a suggestion Jim. That’s probably one of the easiest plans to make one that you will find. You can probably get some ideas from it anyways. I’m thinking something incredibly simple, such as a slightly shaped 2’x4’ using a automobile leaf spring, but I don’t have the details, just the basic idea in my head. You want to stick to the simpler, earlier crossbow designs, like the one’s used in The Road Warrior. Like I said, last time I searched youtube there were tons of videos on the subject. I will say though that PVC is some pretty versatile material, and cheap enough that stockpiling a supply of it won’t break the bank account.Delete
To be honest, unless I could produce something from completely raw materials (carve my own bow stave from a tree, produce my own string from plant fiber or sinew, or my own arrow shafts from dogwood or the like) I will never feel completely satisfied. Maybe I’ll head down to the local casino and hire one of the employees to teach me primitive skills? Yeah, I know. That’s like heading down to Oakland, and inquiring with one of the locals on the finer points of Atlatl production, right after he puts a petroleum based cap in my ass 😀
I can appreciate the desire to go all natural in production. Only then are you completely self reliant. But salvage and modern material do allow you a nice grace period to learn with trial and error. Think of it as a bag of artificial fertilizer keeping you from starving as you learn organic growing.Delete
I believe having a rifle within arms reach 24/7 will be a pain. Sooner or later you're going to get caught out.ReplyDelete
A handgun *shouldn't* be as much of a pain to have on you 24/7. Certainly it'd give people pause when you have social interactions.
Handguns in Dingoland are a right royal pita to acquire & to own. A single barrel shotgun can be bought very cheaply. Single barrel rifles *may* also be an alternative albeit a bit dearer _BUT_ gives added range? (apologies my mind is on single shot rifles at the moment... i'm trying to justify buying one & to be honest I know I'm trying to justify it from a want not a need perspective... more likely it's just that guns are fun part of our subculture of survivalism / prepping. Last night I spent the whole night researching 450 bushmaster caliber. Good thing the LGS is shut at 11pm on a friday and that I'm a po boy. LOL)
I guess I look at from the perspective of an infantryman rather than a policeman. The rifle always with you becomes second nature. Ideally, you have both, for the best of both worlds. But realistically, a rifle is the best choice if only given one.Delete
I guess I just picture myself doing my own thing PODO (collecting water, gardening etc)Delete
Reminds me of a story I heard.Delete
A soldier training for the SAS made the mistake of being more than one arms length away from his rifle. The training guy (I'm not an army guy so I don't know what the lingo is) who caught him said "well, what's the correct punishment for this then?"
The sas wanna-be said "50 Burpees" & the training guy said "that's for regular army. try again" so the wannabe said "500" then proceeded to do said number. When he was finished the training guy said "I'd have been happy with 100"
I think I can do 5
You have to admit those kinds of punishments do leave the lesson burned into your brain to the point of compulsion.Delete
Speaking of army and guns. When I was in the army in 74-78 the aggressors actively tried to steal your guns and even reached under the tent wall when you were sleeping, groping around. You had to sleep with the sling wrapped around your arm. During field exercises they did no less than 3 sensitive items formations each day - guns, bayonets, gas masks, decon. If you lost your gun it was an automatic $50 article 15. 2nd offense was $300 and the 3rd meant some time at Mannheim.Delete
We slept with them for security. An M60 isn't too comfortable to spoon on a cot :) Amazing the stuff you think about thirty years later, which at the time was a blur of sleep deprivation.Delete
SCENARIO: You're hanging out at the homestead, working hard, and you suddenly come under attack by looters. You grab your rifle and retreat to your pre-planned defensive position. You practiced for this, so your rifle and a small portion of your head are the only parts visible (and intermittently your hand and elbow as you work the bolt). There's a high likelihood your rifle may be hit by a round from your attackers, or in your panic you induce a jam, working the bolt fast, but not smooth, maybe dropping your stripper clip in the mud during a hasty reload. As they rush your position, (since you stopped firing) you attach your bayonet. THIS IS WHEN YOU NEED THAT PISTOL. You need to thin out as many as possible before it gets to hand-to-hand range. Your long Enfield bayonet will produce a lot of friction when you insert it into the closest attacker. Yes, you have an acceptable short-range spear, but it's for one guy. You may have to put your boot on the chest of that guy in order to get the bayonet out (so I've heard, not from experience), and while that's happening, his friends will finish you off.ReplyDelete
PISTOL COMPETENCE: When I turned 21, I bought a Glock, because the gun magazines said it was the best. I was embarrassed that I couldn't hit anything with it. I started dry firing to practice my trigger pull and my groups got tighter and tighter, to the point that I could empty the magazine as fast as I could pull the trigger and keep a nice tight group at 7 yards. I went from "I suck" to "I'm competent" in maybe 300 rounds. Now, with any pistol I carry, I can reliably hit a torso target 50-75% of the time at 100 yards. So my pistol is like a rifle that's always on me. Dry firing is a lot easier with a rifle or a double-action pistol so you don't have to rack the slide after each shot. The longest I've ever gone without shooting my pistol is maybe 6 or 8 months. The next time I shot my skills did not deteriorate much (they were back within 1/2 of a magazine) because I was semi-regularly dry firing.
Perhaps it would be better to envision two different types of conflict. Which I should have better thought of and described. Offensive, I would see little need for a pistol. Defensive, a much better need for a pistol, under circumstances other than I described. I was focused too much on present day, then offensive combat, with only small consider for other scenarios. Which is my bad. Would I trade my pistol in, thinking it is worthless? No. It has its uses, but I would think less than we are thinking as we live amongst so much crime. And now that I think about it, I gave no consideration to non-combatants using it for defense. Perhaps rather than using it for defense we should be giving more consideration towards offense to minimize defense, minimizing its role completely. Problematic either way, though.Delete
Someone above mentioned primitive weaponry.Delete
This summer a friend gave me a truckload of unneeded 4"x4" dunnage from a steel company. This weekend I'm using some of it to build a 4'x4' stand-up target range for throwing hawks and knives. I'm presently researching which ones to buy. I can stick a knife in the wall everytime if it's the same knife and I only let it turn one rotation. That's not nearly good enough. There's some science to it and it'll never be like what you see in the movies. I hope to get good enough with both hawks and knives that I start to feel confident. And you know what confidence leads to. I'm getting 3 hawks and 3 knives. The hawks will have 1 edge and a hammer back side. The knives will be double edged and single bladed. 3 of each will cut down on the time walking back and forth. I'll start from about 10' away and work backwards as I *get it*. It'd be nice to have an instructor to see in person how it's done, with my own eyeballs, but that's not possible and videos don't seem to convey properly.
Shurikan? Probably spelled that wrong-the throwing stars. Would that by their nature be better throw-ers? I'd think you might have issues being quick about it, though.Delete
Ha! Throwing stars. Went through that faze long ago, in the 80's, when our kid was all about them ninja turtles. Unless they are razor sharp they won't stick, just bounce off stuff. When razor sharp your fingers are all cut up handling them. And, they barely penetrate cause the blades are so small, mabe 1-1/2".Delete
But now you got me thinking. In a much younger lifetime I used to reign supreme with frisbees, still have about 5 around here some where, and could even throw them so that they would curve around corners. I'm right handed so if the disk was leaning down on the left it will curve to the left. Now, get some old skool steel hubcaps and strip the ornamentation off, saw-tooth the edge, and spin balance them, could be a formidable head remover at say, up to 100' away. Or take a limb completely off.
I had been serious about the stars, but reading your reply I was laughing at my own dumb ass.Delete
Ninja stars? Reminds me of metal shop at high schoolDelete
Metal shop. More burns than completed projects.Delete
They did away with metal/wood shop, at least where I went to school. Yeah, it probably had something to do with liability. It was probably one of the last masculine bastions that boys were still allowed at the time (8th grade 1978). No girls ever took that class. There were actually some pretty impressive projects that a few of the more ambitious boys took on. One dude was building his own Indian canoe.Delete
They also did away with our school bus service. Since we were paying for it, I’m not sure why they cut that one out? We were in a rural area, but it wasn’t that rural.
Girls couldn't participate, and they tripled math and science requirements ( why? All the engineers are over in China ), plus forth grade sex ed, so simply no time for any shop classes. To be fair, there were no vocations they prepared you for anyway by that time ( ten years after the start of factories moving overseas ), but then they were still teaching German and that cultural force here had been crushed during WWI ( to further the central bankers war propaganda )seventy years prior.Delete
As you know, I primarily hunt with a compound bow. Though I've never had to resort , to my backup weapon...a shoulder harnessed .45 long colt revolver. Yet it gives great comfort just knowing it is there. First two bullets are five in one snake shots, and the next four are 325 grain very hotly loaded XTP Hollow points. Gaurenteed to bring down any man or beast...if ya hit em lol !ReplyDelete
Just finished the second reading of the Slow Burn series Jim. Turns out I had purchased the series awhile back and had them on my Kindle reader.
Suffice to say it was a good read. Not your normal Zombie type story. They die easily , just like normal folks, which makes it a plausible scenario. I like plausible ! The more varied, the better.
I too, recommend reading this series.
Did you read his three Ebola books? His best, for me.Delete
I slip a handgun in my pocket to see what the heck the dog is barking at. 95% of the time it's people just walking by out on the road. I say hello and shush the dog. Then never know I'm armed. The other 5%, so far, is some animal trying to get into my stuff -a racoon in the garden or a bear trying to get into my basement. Usually just run them off, but had to shoot a woodchuck once as it was acting weird enough to make me wonder if it was rabid.ReplyDelete
There have been breakins out here in the woods -not a lot, but less than zero. If I had to shoot one of them I'd have a big decision to make. Do a I call the local cops I know pretty well, or do I grab my shovel?
I guess it is easy to give advice when it isn't your ass going to jail, but I would like to think I'd do the smart thing and grab a shovel. Not that I'm accused to often of doing the smart thing.Delete