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Tuesday, October 9, 2018

battle rifle book 11


BATTLE RIFLE BOOK 11
AK/SKS
I’ve never owned an AK carbine, although I’ve owned my share of SKS’s.  Same family, insofar as design and functionality.  I love the concept.  They are far better end of the world guns than the AR as far as surviving abuse and the real world of the battlefield where crap gets knocked about regularly ( if it wasn’t for the sandbox vets who were far less mistreated by their M4’s than the ‘Nam vets were by their M-16’s, you could discount most reports on the AR reliability as gun range warriors, who never abuse the weapon.  Alas, the AR system has proven itself ).  Where they suck at is price and accuracy.
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Now, I’m NOT saying the AK is inaccurate.  Mostly, the cheap ammunition combined with the sloppiest quality guns ( like from China ) make them inaccurate.  If you buy a better quality-and here is an actual surprise as most of those are Made In America-AND stay away from that steel cased crap ( it is the chemicals inside that quickly corrode your inner parts, plus it just isn’t at all accurate.  Beyond a hundred yards or so, stay away from steel case.  If you plan on ever using the gun over about 5k rounds, avoid steel case.  Even if brass is twice the price, it is cheaper because you hit targets with it ), you don’t lose a lot over AR accuracy.  At least to about 200 yards.
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The issue also becomes that a cheap AR is far better at accuracy than a cheap AK.  I love the SKS.  It is a better constructed gun ( outside China ) and inherently more accurate.  Alas, they start at $400.  And that is usually for a used gun.  Used with that corrosive ammunition.  I’d rather spend $500 and get a cheap NEW AK.  So the SKS is no longer a viable choice in my mind.  I love the Lee-Enfield at $100-$150.  Beyond that, it is a beat to crap gun having no business being expensive.  The same with the SKS.  They have no business selling at their elevated price, for a used gun.  I’m not a collector, I’m a user.
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If I want an accurate AK, I’m probably spending $600-$700.  I can get a crappy G3 for $700, and a really great one for $1,000.  But there is that receiver cover dent issue with the G3 ( covered in its own section ) and parts are far more expensive with the G3.  Plus, where everyone owns an AR, and perhaps ten to twenty percent owns an AK, almost nobody owns any of the Full Thirties.  They are a niche product.  If you want full blown apocalypse robustness, at least you have a chance of running across a few more AK’s.  Not the G3’s.  Not the SKS ( unless it is a Chinese hunk of crap, and that is NO find at all ).  If you want a tank of a gun, the AK is the only viable choice.
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Now, yes, the AK does share that receiver cover dent issue with the G3.  And it is a sheet metal monstrosity.  But one that you can either easily and cheaply replace, or easily fix yourself with a hammer ( I’m not claiming you can fix that particular issue yourself from experience, but claiming that most field expedient repairs seem possible with the AK.  From forums it seems that bent AK receivers don’t generally stop operations, unlike on the G3.  And the AK part is $20, verses the G3 at $200 ). 
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I’ve always compared the AK verses the AR to the Lee-Enfield verses the Mauser ( yes, whippersnappers, us older guys used to talk about them a lot.  They were all over the place and cheap, and much better built than plastic carbines.  Now, plastic or sheet metal carbines are all that is left affordably ).  The Enfield wasn’t accuracy incarnate.  It was built to keep firing no matter what.  Even today, it far outshines the semi-auto plastic wunder weapons in Artic conditions.  It was twice as accurate as the M1 Garand, but compared to the Mauser it wasn’t.  If you were really sipping ammo after the apocalypse, the Mauser was your only option.  I just preferred the extra robustness of the Enfield ( this refers to ease of loading, NOT quality of manufacture).  Which was designed PRIOR to the trenches of WWI.  They just had some really bright boys behind it.  Not that Mausers were at a disadvantage per se, as they were always operating under LOW fire rather than volley fire.  If you trained your men as marksmen, the Mauser was fine.
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The AK is accurate enough at short range.  They worked superbly in Vietnam.  Afghanistan, not so much.  Don’t rely on an AK if shots over 200 to 250 yards are going to be normal for you ( but best under 100 ).  The ammunition was designed to be an assault rifle round.  The advantage you have with the AK is, simply, mission reliability.  You can almost guarantee that nothing goes amiss during a mission.  The AR is far more reliable than ever in its history, but it is more accurate and hence more prone to breakage.  The parts have no slop in them, like an Enfield or AK does.  Too close tolerances.  Which means that when it works it is fantastic but it isn’t designed to work if anything goes wrong.  Parts breaking on the AK stop the gun, also.  They just aren’t as fragile.
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It is a relative measurement.  Both systems work good in combat.  It is merely that under the worst conditions, RELATIVE to the AK, the AR will experience more reliability issues.  With the AR, until something breaks you can hit your target far more often.  With an AK, nothing is liable to break on it, but after a certain range your hit probability decreases.  Do you want to conserve ammo at all costs, accepting limitations with that, or do you want the gun to work better in the field at the cost of accuracy?  It isn’t that the AK is better or worse than the AR, it is that one does one thing and the other does another thing.  It is as simple as that.
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Arguing one is better than the other is merely arguing for your set of priorities.  More fragile but won’t waste ammo or built like a tank but accuracy on top of that is going to cost you extra money.  This is no longer the frugal survivalist choice.  It is spending extra to buy reliability.  And I’m not talking about the base model $500 AK, verses the base AR at $350.  You need to spend more because the entry level AK’s won’t get you much accuracy ( which you don’t need if you are short range with steel cases, so don’t spend more ).  If you want reliability AND accuracy you will spend roughly twice as much going with the AK over the AR.  Not really much of a way around that.
( .Y. )
( today's related link https://amzn.to/2NjmPv7 )
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note: SL in FL.  I got your book in the mail, the "Age Of Deception".  I just started a library book on the new DNA discoveries pointing to a better understanding of human evolution and migration, so I'm really into that one right now.  But yours is next in the stack.  I do appreciate the thought and generosity.  Thanks!
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39 comments:

  1. Jim, your analysis of battling rifles and comparisons is good in the context of frugal Minion decision making. I liken it to a chevy dodge ford truck comparison. If a Minion can get basic familiarity of each weapon platform and the attributes and detractions, they may make a selection decision based upon their personal needs, A.O. etc. Training and skill set is the other fifty percent of the equation. "Run with what you brung to the race". I have high confidence that after a bit of on the job training during collapse and apocalypse, Minions will more than adequately perform with whatever they be packin'.

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    1. Right, the skilled guy with a rimfire will defeat the novice with an AR, unless luck or Murphy skew the equation. The OJT will be brutal but effective. This book is basically mental masturbation. If you aren't already armed you have serious issues.

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    2. Yeah, those unarmed, or under armed and ill equipped with gear or mentality will be on the menu. There will be lots of corpses along roadsides missing shoes and pockets turned all inside out. Some will have bloody mouths from the gold tooth extractions. Got guns?

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    3. With mental being the primary. You can eek by on less gear ( except calories ), but not on less smarts or grit.

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  2. Anon 9:40 AM - so okay, you need some plyars to remove them toofs ? Yet another tool for Harbor Freight (you have any 'extracting tools ?" :^)

    The SKS I wish I owed was the 20 round fixed magazine equipped model. So that you could empty the 10 round stripper clip and not worry about every round being used up before reloading.

    Remember Vlad's instructions on how to convert the SKS to single shot operation ? October 4, 2011 was the date of post detailing how.


    http://vlad-unclevlad.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2011-11-02T09:44:00-05:00&max-results=7&start=7&by-date=false

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    1. An extracting tool is under $10, and I'll imagine many a "barber" will find it priceless.
      https://amzn.to/2y6lrY4
      ( not sure how many sizes you need as a minimum )

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  3. I have little experience with any of the rifles mentioned in this post, other than the Enfield that my drunken brother, gave to a fellow drunk at the bar that he frequented.

    But I worked with a guy that was in Vietnam. He informed me that whenever he and his fellow platoon members came across an AK and ammo (usually furnished by a dead NVA) they would use the AK instead of their M16's. But of course they couldn't bring them back to base.

    Now the above mentioned dude was kinda full of shit, to the point of having the brownest eyes I've ever seen :D Still, it does seem like a plausible story

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    1. I image the myth started when SpecForces used the AK to blend in, and after M-16 failures the Green Beenies must have switched to the AK's because they wouldn't jam ( rather than just being noise cammo ). Just a guess.

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  4. I bought a pair of the Saiga rifles way back when you could get these new for about $350. They are an AK-type action with mostly AK parts, but no scary pistol grip and sold as a "hunting rifle". Mine seem like tanks that would hold up well. I got one in .223 and one in 7.62X39. They seem about as accurate as AK's get (for me, 2-3" groups at 100 yards with lots of help from a sandbag rest). I thought these were a good option based on cost versus what you got. Then the company got caught up in the sanctions against Russia back in 2014, and now they seem to go on-line for twice the old price. This is why we can't have nice things. Somebody F's it up sooner or later.

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    1. Someone always humps up affordable guns. Both political parties. They hate poor people. Mule rectum molesters. So, if history is any guide, expect the prices of AR's to go skyward. I'm sure how unless they change the law on 80%'s, but then I never saw the Mosin-Nagants ever getting expensive.

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  5. Just to review my experiences. Aks are actually decent guns (sks as well) for "their design". They would not be the world's most prolific gun otherwise. They will eat steel case ammo, no problem, saves money on cost of ammo. Add a few dabs or brush basting of oil to the casings (any semi gun) as you load mags for combat conditions +/or full auto, helps run the gun. 30 caliber holes will get some penetration and killing done. Either ak or ar, clean the gun accordingly in downtime as per high minion standards. Use 'break free', it is G.I. good and will leach out carbon fouling after cleaning when oiled and stored. Stay with original stoner designed ar operating system, or kalishnakov system. (Not someone's attempt to reinvent the wheel design) ar 15 if you are all militia'd up with a posse and want to mingle with freefor forces or regular troops. Ak47 if on budget to maximize ammo larder ability. Ability for acceptable self sustainment in guns and related gear is secondary as important as food self sustainment for your stomach.

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    1. Thanks. I hadn't heard about oiling cases before. That is a real thing? You're not yanking my chain I hope.

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    2. I go another way.
      I use CLP exclusively now, but still hang on to my bottles of Hoppes.

      I keep 2 mags loaded for my 2 primary guns, the Beretta 92 and the AR .223, all other mags are empty. About every 2 months I empty the mags to prevent spring fatigue. Most of the time they just get used at the range so that isn't an issue, cept in the winter.

      I also use speedloaders for both those guns. I have ammo boxes slammed with loose cartridges (about 1000 223 and 1400 9mm, per box) and 2 speedloaders in each box, the Maglusa brand. I can load a 30rd AR mag in just over a minute and an 18rd 9mm mag in less than 30 secs. That is if there are no distractions. If you haven't tried the Maglusa loaders you are missing out. You won't go back to hand loading until they break.

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    3. Yep. Refer to old w.w.2 films of sailors or g.i.s using brushes to oil belts of 50 cal, 20mm and 40 bofors ammo. Worked gun range in vegas. Rented machine guns for tourists to shoot, same thing. We never cleaned the guns until they stopped working. (M16 can just change bolt carrier group, oil, and it will run again, bcg is what fouls-stops up. We kept many spare bcgs on work bench) Too busy to be bothering literally, add oil to weapon action, wipe it's ass, back to work. Dribble a little bit of oil, 5 drops was my count, from squeeze bottle onto ammo in mag (ak / m16) or along links of saw-belt fed /it flows itself and lubes bolt and chamber when blasting away. We shot a barrel out in a week of business action. Bullets come out squirrely after that and keyhole sideways into the paper target even at short ranges. It is all those little on the ground things learned in infantry or journeyman practice with guns not learned on the web or soldier of fortune back issue magazines. Good luck, happy hunting.

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    4. If not tasting a bit of gun oil in a firefight or getting glasses or goggles splattered a bit the gun is probably lacking lube. Better a little more lube than not enough, never hurt the one you love during sport.

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    5. I hadn't heard of that either, but I may have had a similar experience. Years ago I shot a Hungarian copy of a Makarov that belonged to someone else. There was older steel case ammo, and newer brass case ammo (9x18 Makarov). A lot of the newer steel case stuff has a polymer or lacquer coating to help with lubricity. The brass case stuff ran fine, but the only way I could get the steel case stuff to cycle reliably was to soak the gun internals with so much oil that there was visible oil spray from between the slide and frame each time you fired. Messy, nasty yuck.
      Peace out

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    6. Ya learn something new and its a good day. Thanks, all.

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  6. I was having a conversation with my cousin earlier about places to move. He’s not a prepper or anything of the sort, but he leans to the right politically. He mentioned New England, and I informed him that’s a terrible choice due to population density. I then sent him the lights of America map in the link below. This surprised him, because he apparently had no idea how the east differed from the west in this regard.

    In either event, in this particular map, when looking over the state of Nevada, it really looks kind of promising. The only serious light spot is in Vegas. Elko actually looks particularly promising, going by this map. Just got through arguing with my brother, that while we are in a small town, we are only 25 miles away from a large, and crime ridden city. His drunken ass informed me that we will never have anything to worry about, because they will never come here. I should know better than to argue with a drunken idiot, but there you go :D

    https://static1.squarespace.com/static/558cc50ee4b00cc962c6fabf/t/55adc574e4b0e40497b86187/1437451638602/

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    1. Get a version of this map where you can zoom in. Elko isn't all that great, but it is surrounded by nothing. Vermont, and north NY and Maine really only have Montreal to worry about, but yeah, you can't have too much population movement to stay safe. And populations always move. Europe has had serious waves wiping out the indigs. That started prior to Neandrathals and is again happening now unless the right finds enough non Soy Boys to rebel. So you are right to fear the lights ( almost poetic ). The dark areas now are only good for current situations. If he wasn't drunk, he would be delusional anyway. Most are, yes?

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    2. Yeah nevada and a few western states have enough land tied up by blm, usfs, to keep it vacant. The highway and interstate and railroad corridors are an economic water hole for work or townie living. It is easy therefore to scurry a few miles away and have distance, safety, etc. A theory anyway.

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    3. I have google earth Jim, so I would probably just use that to zoom in better, as it works really well. Though I can never seem to get the ground level feature to cooperate for me.

      There you go: “ you are right to fear the lights”. You should patent that one :D

      My brother has always been an obnoxious piss drunk. He religiously worships everything that Glenn Beck spouts off, then accuses me of getting my information from those “right wing, conspiracy theory blogs”. The thing is, I have no idea what the hell he’s even talking about, since I follow no such blogs, having an intense distrust of any and all American news media, including the so called, watered down, modern right news sites. Admittedly, I sometimes listen to Michael Savage in the evenings, because he sometimes makes some really great points. But at least half the time, I find him to be full of shit, and toss out about half of what he says.

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    4. "Fear the Light!" Dark and cold Northern places with some natural barriers to bother tankers (keep tanks and APC's on-roads) are the places to be. If a person has an insulated cistern and deep hidden larder, it shouldn't be too hard to keep warm & obscure in an off-grid off-road up-hill hobbit hole/cabinette until the melt reveals victims of the winter. Got pliers, shovels, and some bio-hazard wipes? A winter of Scrabble and scanning the radio waves doesn't sound bad, compared to having cities burn around you and death squads going door-to-door.
      pdxr13

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    5. Here's some uncompressed night image goodness at ~90MB
      https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/79000/79800/dnb_united_states_lrg.tif

      pdxr13

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    6. 7:30-I think it is a good theory. Wasteland has little appeal for exploration except in times of surplus fat.
      7:39-I think Glen Beck used to be worth something, but long ago jumped the shark. I think the amount of money increasingly helped neuter him.
      7:49-But...property rights and stuff! No one would ever kick in my door and kill me! Not even lesbian kitten killers!

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  7. If you're a broke dik dawg and need a gun now then here is the way to get at it pronto:

    Ruger 10/22 $200
    Winchester 1000 rds $50
    Tax and transfer $50
    --------------------
    Total $300

    Ruger: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/2084_36_59_79/products_id/719007251/Ruger+10%2F22+.22LR+Rimfire+with+Copper+Mica+Stock

    Winchester: https://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/west/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=362

    I've done successful business with both those links many times.
    You're welcome.

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    1. I paid $159 ( if my grey matter isn't failing me ) for my Rugar 10/22 over twenty years ago, On Sale! So $189 is pretty awesome.

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    2. My salesmanship was too powerful...it drew me in. After sleeping on it I'm going to order that gun later today. It's stupid to NOT buy it. Weighs 5lb, waterproof stock, what's not to like? There's worse ways to blow 2 c notes.

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    3. Hell, I was tempted and I do NOT need any more guns. Luckily I already started my new project ( canning protein ) so I cannot be seriously tempted by other equipment of a firearms nature.

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    4. That’s a really good price on a 10/22. I have a 10/22 and have never had a problem with it. But mine is very old; probably one of the first (circa 1964) so I can’t say if quality has gone down over the years or not?

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    5. Come for my brilliance, stay for vast knowledge pool from minions. Now everyone has the chance to procure a super cheap rimfire.

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    6. OK. Done deal. I got 2. LOL
      See what you can do when you cut expenses to the bone and eliminate unnecessary riff-raff? You can jump right in the middle of a decent deal when it comes along. If I had car payments, on a car that mostly just sits there, or a phone payment on a phone I rarely use, etc., etc., I'd be all broke and poor ass feeling all the time and wondering why my po' ass is so down in the dumps.

      Yeah, I got 2, 1 for my wife. She don't like guns, has never fired one, but I have been buttering her up over the past few years and next week after I test drive these things she's going to get introduced, whether she likes it or not. I'm not going to last forever, she'll surely outlive me, and I have to insure she's able to fend off raiders in the future in my absence. These guns are supposed to be at my dealer on Mon and may be in my possession that afternoon. I went ahead and got 2 boxes of that ammo too. Now I'm gonna start researching some accessories. Slings, glass, mags, etc.

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    7. Unless people are complete idiots, and I assume your wife is not one of them, once they get over the initial hesitation and actually shoot, they fall in love with it. She might start costing you extra plinking budget. If not, meh, 2 is 1.

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    8. Dang! Now ya tell me! Why didn't I think of that???
      Well, at least I didn't get her a .223 or .308, now you're talking some serious coin to keep it fed.

      Yeah I'm hoping the low noise and short kick of the .22 won't run her off like a larger caliber might.

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    9. Yeah, I keep seeing the novice fall in love. First time shooters with a 38 or Mini-14. I think the manageable caliber is key. I got one novice hooked on the 45, but he was a corn fed stocky 'ol boy.

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  8. I always heard that "oiling" your cases could cause HIGH chamber pressures. Not sure if this is a fact though

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    1. University Of Internet has millions of great classes. Sometimes they get the odd nutty professor. Sometimes you just don't know it at first. More info on this from others just posted.

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    2. Once case swells upon firing it self seals and pressure will drop upon bullet out the barrel, which occurs in bolt guns or semis as it is timed as a natural mechanical delay and unlocking as cycling occurs in semi autos, all in micro seconds. Not going to increase pressure as not part of equations.

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    3. That makes sense. Duh. Carrying on :)

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